Lennon's back baby!

[DHSF]

The wide forwards (or whatever you want to call them) in a 4-3-3 are not poachers and their responsibility is much wider than just goalscoring.



I agree with what you're saying, but I don't quite see how that opposes anything I've said, or invalidates the stats I posted.

My point with the stats is that a comparison on how many chances players create can be helpful at least as a piece of information about what a player contributes going forward. At least as valid as information as one person saying "he doesn't do enough going forward" for example.

An assist is a chance that is converted into a goal.

But to create a chance surely you need strikers who you will be able to find. Also a chance is subjective - what constitutes a chance? What is the criteria for a chance to be considered a chance?

Also surely creating a chance for someone like RVP is a lot easier than creating a chance for a midget from a right or left wing position.

I like stats but so many factors behind why they can't be so reliable.

 

[braineclipse]

The question many have raised is - 'what does he have to do going forward'?

The anwer to which is - certainly not the same as Lennon or the other out-and-out wingers in that little graph - hence the lack of objectivity

Walcott is a very good wide forward and an average right winger. Lennon is a very good right winger but not a sharp in front of goal (which one could argue would be a bonus not a prerequisite in his primary position)

That is a decent question in deed. So to start answering it, a good place to start is "how many chances should he be creating"? Comparing his stats to the stats of others is at least a decent way to see if he's creating a decent amount of chances or not.

It's not completely objective of course, but it's not thereby useless.

An assist is a chance that is converted into a goal.

But to create a chance surely you need strikers who you will be able to find. Also a chance is subjective - what constitutes a chance? What is the criteria for a chance to be considered a chance?

Also surely creating a chance for someone like RVP is a lot easier than creating a chance for a midget from a right or left wing position.

I like stats but so many factors behind why they can't be so reliable.

The subjective judgement call on what is a chance and what isn't should average out over time.

It's also not like strikers like Falcao or RvP have all the movement while strikers like Defoe and Ade have no movement at all. It does make it easier to create a chance with a top class striker in the box, but that would only skew the numbers, not invalidate them.

I'm not sure how reliable you think I think stats are, I'm not saying they can end the discussion.

 

[DHSF]

That is a decent question in deed. So to start answering it, a good place to start is "how many chances should he be creating"? Comparing his stats to the stats of others is at least a decent way to see if he's creating a decent amount of chances or not.

It's not completely objective of course, but it's not thereby useless.



The subjective judgement call on what is a chance and what isn't should average out over time.

It's also not like strikers like Falcao or RvP have all the movement while strikers like Defoe and Ade have no movement at all. It does make it easier to create a chance with a top class striker in the box, but that would only skew the numbers, not invalidate them.

I'm not sure how reliable you think I think stats are, I'm not saying they can end the discussion.

I apologise if it came across that way I was just getting carried away in proving statistics arent the be all and end all but merely provides some kind of indication (without any comfort) of how effective a player is albeit with a number of caveats.

I wouldnt go as far as invalidate the number but skewing them is definitely something that satistics do. Even creating an additional one chance a game which someone like RVP could get would skew the numbers considerable and thus makes someone like Valencia look like a world beater compared to Lennon.

Personally I go on how I see the player performing and if I think he is performing well then thats enough for me. I am a bit biased as Lennon is simply my favorite player and love watching him but I also know when someone may be better than him (but it wouldnt be based on statistics etc). Thats why whens omeone mentions walnut in the same breathe I laugh a bit (without being disrespectful) because whilst theyre similiar players their remit is different and the calibre of striker (RVP last season) they play with is also different.

 

[braineclipse]

I apologise if it came across that way I was just getting carried away in proving statistics arent the be all and end all but merely provides some kind of indication (without any comfort) of how effective a player is albeit with a number of caveats.

I wouldnt go as far as invalidate the number but skewing them is definitely something that satistics do. Even creating an additional one chance a game which someone like RVP could get would skew the numbers considerable and thus makes someone like Valencia look like a world beater compared to Lennon.

Personally I go on how I see the player performing and if I think he is performing well then thats enough for me. I am a bit biased as Lennon is simply my favorite player and love watching him but I also know when someone may be better than him (but it wouldnt be based on statistics etc). Thats why whens omeone mentions walnut in the same breathe I laugh a bit (without being disrespectful) because whilst theyre similiar players their remit is different and the calibre of striker (RVP last season) they play with is also different.

No worries, I think there are posters on here who put too much stock in stats for what it's worth.

I'm also biased, but then against I'm biased about most Spurs players. And I also think Lennon is a very good player for us, funny you should mention Valencia as he's another player who I think is generally underrated, although his assist stats at United have set him apart a bit and he has been getting quite a bit of well deserved praise.

Back to Lennon, he's great

 

[Pirate55]

No worries, I think there are posters on here who put too much stock in stats for what it's worth.

I'm also biased, but then against I'm biased about most Spurs players. And I also think Lennon is a very good player for us, funny you should mention Valencia as he's another player who I think is generally underrated, although his assist stats at United have set him apart a bit and he has been getting quite a bit of well deserved praise.

Back to Lennon, he's great

Now that Bale is out injured, Lennon simply has to step up in the offensive part of his game.

I really hope he is up to the challenge and can re-create the excitement of earlier times.

 

[ledley's knee injections]

Quality game tonight from the little fella. Some awesome runs, two/three excellent crosses, towering defensive workrate... and lovely jinking crossfield run capped off with a beauitful reverse through ball for JD's goal.

How people criticise this guy is beyond me.

 

[onlyme]

Quality game tonight from the little fella. Some awesome runs, two/three excellent crosses, towering defensive workrate... and lovely jinking crossfield run capped off with a beauitful reverse through ball for JD's goal.

How people criticise this guy is beyond me.

In his last minutes he was getting stuck into their full back and nearly created a chance out of nothing. City tried to kick him out of the game and they are the champs.

 

[Spursalot]

Quality game tonight from the little fella. Some awesome runs, two/three excellent crosses, towering defensive workrate... and lovely jinking crossfield run capped off with a beauitful reverse through ball for JD's goal.

How people criticise this guy is beyond me.

Was not really involved at all first half, was an impressive showing second half though.

 

[Mumorn]

THAT BALL

 

[#11L]

THAT BALL

Yeah! And THAT finish aswell

 

[Pirate55]

Was not really involved at all first half, was an impressive showing second half though.

Exactly. The point I have been trying to make is NOT that he cant do it (or doesnt have the skills to do it) - it is that he just doesnt do it ENOUGH.

 

[harr1984]

Exactly. The point I have been trying to make is NOT that he cant do it (or doesnt have the skills to do it) - it is that he just doesnt do it ENOUGH.

I'm a winger myself (obviously not to this standard!) but even at my level you have to accept you just arent going to be involved a lot of the time because your job is always to stay out wide and provide width, even when you're not receiving the ball. Sometimes I get frustrated at the lack of supply Im getting and go inside searching for the ball but the gaffer barks at me to go back out wide. Point being it's hard as a winger to be constantly involved, so when you get the ball especially in dangerous areas you need to make sure you do something with it. Lennon often does when given the opportunity. You have to remember he is playing with Bale on the opposite wing who is an incredible winger so more often than not people are going to look for Bale on the left. Before Bale was playing on the wing the ball was always pinged out to Lennon on the right who was frequently at his destructive best. He hasn't lost this ability at all, simply doesn't get to do it as often now Bale has developed the way he has.

Lennon still makes a difference and creates something more often than not....

 

[Pirate55]

I'm a winger myself (obviously not to this standard!) but even at my level you have to accept you just arent going to be involved a lot of the time because your job is always to stay out wide and provide width, even when you're not receiving the ball. Sometimes I get frustrated at the lack of supply Im getting and go inside searching for the ball but the gaffer barks at me to go back out wide. Point being it's hard as a winger to be constantly involved, so when you get the ball especially in dangerous areas you need to make sure you do something with it. Lennon often does when given the opportunity. You have to remember he is playing with Bale on the opposite wing who is an incredible winger so more often than not people are going to look for Bale on the left. Before Bale was playing on the wing the ball was always pinged out to Lennon on the right who was frequently at his destructive best. He hasn't lost this ability at all, simply doesn't get to do it as often now Bale has developed the way he has.

Lennon still makes a difference and creates something more often than not....

I understand completely the points you are making and largely agree with them. I have also played as an out and out right winger/midfielder.However, Lennon often doesnt get the ball enough because his positioning and running off the ball is poor. I have lost count of the number of times I have barked at him at WHL to come out wide and make space for himself to receive the ball. He often just stands next to his marker. Add to that he makes very very few runs into space to receive the ball behind the full back and you can begin to see why he often is not in the game very much offensively. Finally, when he does get the ball one-on-one against a full back (especially after he has been booked) Lennon seems remarkably reluctant to take him on - particularly on the outside and get to the by-line. He seems so different from his early days at WHL.

With Bale rampant on the other touchline and often attracting double marking, this should leave even more space and potential for Lennon to thrive. He has all the attributes to make a difference - he just needs to do it more often.

 

[DHSF]

Exactly. The point I have been trying to make is NOT that he cant do it (or doesnt have the skills to do it) - it is that he just doesnt do it ENOUGH.

He is involved just in a different capacity i.e. defending. Lets be honest he has been defending quite a bit this season. He cant be defending and attacking simultaneously.

 

[Mumorn]

I'm a winger myself (obviously not to this standard!) but even at my level you have to accept you just arent going to be involved a lot of the time because your job is always to stay out wide and provide width, even when you're not receiving the ball. Sometimes I get frustrated at the lack of supply Im getting and go inside searching for the ball but the gaffer barks at me to go back out wide. Point being it's hard as a winger to be constantly involved, so when you get the ball especially in dangerous areas you need to make sure you do something with it. Lennon often does when given the opportunity. You have to remember he is playing with Bale on the opposite wing who is an incredible winger so more often than not people are going to look for Bale on the left. Before Bale was playing on the wing the ball was always pinged out to Lennon on the right who was frequently at his destructive best. He hasn't lost this ability at all, simply doesn't get to do it as often now Bale has developed the way he has.

Lennon still makes a difference and creates something more often than not....

Spot fudging on.

You only have to look at the one league game we didn't have Bale (Chelsea) and see how Lennon can play WHEN you give him the ball. We kept giving it to him because we had no other winger on the left. It was one of, if not his best game this season and he tore Chelsea an absolute new one.

 

[Pirate55]

He is involved just in a different capacity i.e. defending. Lets be honest he has been defending quite a bit this season. He cant be defending and attacking simultaneously.

Yes I agree he has been defending quite a bit this season. But he should be attacking when we are attacking and defending when we are defending. simple concept really.

 

[Steed Train]

Lennon does seem to shine when bales not playing. Remember last time bale was out and everyone was screaming how good it would be when they're both available, however you can only really use one winger at a time and more often than not players pick out bale. Honestly don't think bale being out short term will hurt us that much

 

[Mumorn]

Lennon does seem to shine when bales not playing. Remember last time bale was out and everyone was screaming how good it would be when they're both available, however you can only really use one winger at a time and more often than not players pick out bale. Honestly don't think bale being out short term will hurt us that much

If anything it may enhance Lennon's performance tomorrow.

 

[Rossi22]

Walcott has 4 assists, not 7.

 

[King of Norway]

I think the way we are playing this season is not benefitting Lennon or the team. When we are set in attack, it seems like Lennon is instructed to take up an inside right position with Walker outside him. Especially at home at least this has been happening a lot. First of all this means that Lennon is stuck in a position where can't do much harm at all, and it also means that we in Walker have a player out wide who is less good at getting past his man and putting the cross in. I think Lennon should stay wider in the final third and receive the ball in a position where he can take his man on and get to the byline.