Richarlison

[Baleforce]

I believe then we are back in the place of this debate where I remember being a few weeks ago…I don’t know the right answer but I question exactly how much accommodation a professional club, one of the top 20 biggest clubs in the world, must make for someone who is known to be emotional? At what point do you just expect a standard of behaviour?

I also think had he simply turned down the moves but not taken to social media, he probably would have been registered. As it was, the combination of the repeated changing of his mind, the social media posting and no move being good enough for him has landed him in this position.

I know your position is that we should have told
him to sign or leave much earlier in the summer. Again I’m not sure why the club should not be allowed to try and convince him to stay? Clearly they let most players go who wanted to, but with Bergval they made an effort to keep him which worked. I think at some point they lost trust in him / he said he firmly wanted out and would not stay. Either way, I would have sympathy for Richy if it comes out that he had said he absolutely wanted to stay, and we banked that commitment, and then we turned around and tried to offload him in part exchange. That would be very bad. Otherwise, I think he must have been the only player this summer that took to social media to criticise their club during a transfer negotiation. And to that I say, what was so egregious about the club’s treatment of him that they deserved that? I don’t think being emotional is an excuse, unless there is a big piece of the story we are missing here.

I think every company should make every accommodation possible for the mental health and wellbeing of their staff.

I know you were not asking me but that is table stakes these days for all employers.

 

[Muttley]

It is if you dislike the player LOL...

Bingo.

I'd actually have a lot more respect if posters didn't play this card repeatedly. We've seen it a fair few times e.g. Ange, Frank etc.

There are endless pages of really objective and friendly conversations about Richi. It's been a fascinating topic and great contributions from pretty much everyone on GG.

It's actually quite disrespectful to fellow posters to bring it down to just liking or disliking Richi.

 

[parklane1]

I'd actually have a lot more respect if posters didn't play this card repeatedly. We've seen it a fair few times e.g. Ange, Frank etc.

There are endless pages of really objective and friendly conversations about Richi. It's been a fascinating topic and great contributions from pretty much everyone on GG.

It's actually quite disrespectful to fellow posters to bring it down to just liking or disliking Richi.

Sorry if it hurts your feelings.

 

[thfcsteff]

I believe then we are back in the place of this debate where I remember being a few weeks ago…

I agree.

I've explained my perspective and, IMO, answered questions you have very, very clearly with examples.

So we are back to differing opinions.

I will say I don't ever remember a Spurs manager saying about any other player that 'I dunno one day he wants to be here the next day he doesn't' before any transfer rumours have come out. Happy to be corrected on that if it is the case.

 

[Muttley]

I think every company should make every accommodation possible for the mental health and wellbeing of their staff.

I know you were not asking me but that is table stakes these days for all employers.

It's actually an area that I deep dived in the workplace through the lens of an Occupational Health company. In the UK we went through a period where everyone was jumping on the Mental Health First Aid (MHFA) bandwagon. Companies believe they could tackle MH in the workplace by having MHFA'ers and it failed spectacularly. It's like the irony of us calling it National Health Service when in so many ways it's the National Sick Service and just having doctors and nurses. You have to put things in place way before the work place adds onto the mental health problems, with work obviously only being one component of life. In order to do that you need a proactive Mental Health strategy first. The other dominoes then fall into place and MHFA can be a key component.

I have a feeing football has come a long way on this journey from the bad old days as articulated very well by guys like Aaron Lennon. If Aaron was passing through Spurs now I have a feeling that the club are way more equipped to detect what may have been happening to him. I think the club actually has massively improved.

I guess the key area of the Richi debate is about how much latitude can a club give to a player. You can't have a different set of standards per each individual. Every player has to be beholding to the same set of standards as a professional. So even if Richi is / was having a mental health challenge that cause him to dip below those standards, the club can't compromise their standards they want the players to operate under. It's a tough, tough equation but I do understand the stance. That is, as much as any outsider can with the data points we're given.

 

[thfcsteff]

I'd actually have a lot more respect if posters didn't play this card repeatedly. We've seen it a fair few times e.g. Ange, Frank etc.

There are endless pages of really objective and friendly conversations about Richi. It's been a fascinating topic and great contributions from pretty much everyone on GG.

It's actually quite disrespectful to fellow posters to bring it down to just liking or disliking Richi.

Your respect for what I write is yours to own, not mine to covet. Your interpretation of it is also yours and nothing to do with me.

I wish I could say I felt sorry you feel the way you do, but again, given it was not a personal comment, it's yours to feel about as you wish.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think every company should make every accommodation possible for the mental health and wellbeing of their staff.

I know you were not asking me but that is table stakes these days for all employers.

I very much agree with you.

Does that accommodation extend to standards expected of every other player when it comes to behaviour in a transfer negotiation? I’m asking where the line is, not saying that mental health isn’t important.

We’re also not even 100% sure that Richy’s mental health challenges were the reason for this post? Is it mental health? Is it emotional volatility? Are they the same thing?

If the club were known to be a terrible modern day environment for players with mental health issues, I’d get it, but we don’t hear anything about that. If anything we seem quite progressive in the area. I think this was just Richy’s error in posting publicly during a big negotiation. And in effect calling out the club…it’s unprofessional.

 

[thfcsteff]

It's actually an area that I deep dived in the workplace through the lens of an Occupational Health company. In the UK we went through a period where everyone was jumping on the Mental Health First Aid (MHFA) bandwagon. Companies believe they could tackle MH in the workplace by having MHFA'ers and it failed spectacularly. It's like the irony of us calling it National Health Service when in so many ways it's the National Sick Service and just having doctors and nurses. You have to put things in place way before the work place adds onto the mental health problems, with work obviously only being one component of life. In order to do that you need a proactive Mental Health strategy first. The other dominoes then fall into place and MHFA can be a key component.

Society as a whole is embracing the reality of mental health more thankfully, albeit, when I see sensationalist pieces coming out which look to throw shade on aspects of Autism diagnosis, I am concerned we will swing back into the darkness.

I have a feeing football has come a long way on this journey from the bad old days as articulated very well by guys like Aaron Lennon. If Aaron was passing through Spurs now I have a feeling that the club are way more equipped to detect what may have been happening to him. I think the club actually has massively improved.

I agree with you on this, and it is to be commended (right down to the matchday initiatives for fans). It makes our curious approach in this situation all the weirder, albeit De Zerbi is an emotional man himself. I genuinely believed this would all be resolved with a handshake and agreement between manager and player to get on with it until January when he'd be off (player that is).

I guess the key area of the Richi debate is about how much latitude can a club give to a player. You can't have a different set of standards per each individual. Every player has to be beholding to the same set of standards as a professional. So even if Richi is / was having a mental health challenge that cause him to dip below those standards, the club can't compromise their standards they want the players to operate under. It's a tough, tough equation but I do understand the stance. That is, as much as any outsider can with the data points we're given.

IMO it is not about latitude, it's about understanding the person you have and approaching the situation accordingly (man-management to a degree in a different arena). I believe RDZ's summer comments during the tour set a tone. I wish we'd been smarter there. I personally believe that after Romero last season, a club decision was made regarding players and SM. No more of that sort of speaking out. Which I agree with. As much as I thought Romero was saying the right things, he should not be saying them publicly to me or anyone; as you would likely say, that is being disrespectful to your employer. So I feel that the destination we arrived at with Richarlison has roots in the Romero stuff.

I wish Richy had not made that defensive post, but there were many who thought he was screwing up our Ndiaye move, plus he'd already been painted as an 'unreliable actor' earlier in the summer by Der Zerbi, publicly. I wish we'd made the decision back then not to bring him on tour. Made it clear it was done unless he signed an extension. That might've allowed us to make a greater decision on Lankshear, or step up a striker search earlier.

 

[thfcsteff]

I very much agree with you.

Does that accommodation extend to standards expected of every other player when it comes to behaviour in a transfer negotiation? I’m asking where the line is, not saying that mental health isn’t important.

We’re also not even 100% sure that Richy’s mental health challenges were the reason for this post? Is it mental health? Is it emotional volatility? Are they the same thing?

If the club were known to be a terrible modern day environment for players with mental health issues, I’d get it, but we don’t hear anything about that. If anything we seem quite progressive in the area. I think this was just Richy’s error in posting publicly during a big negotiation. And in effect calling out the club…it’s unprofessional.

You're right.
We have no idea.
It could be seen as insulting to suggest that just because a guy defends himself publicly he must be suffering a crisis.

I DO think we all know Richy's an emotional person so perhaps another pattern of communication and behaviour would've been good to observe? Imagine if we'd told him pre-tour 'either sign the extension or let's part ways and we won't bring you on tour/into pre-season'? That is being clear. I don't think we were clear with him.

My feeling is we made a hard decision based on the Romero moments last season. And we mishandled Richy from the getgo this summer. So as I don't repeat myself, I replied to @Muttley with some expanded thoughts (if you can be bothered at this point LOL)...

 

[Baleforce]

I very much agree with you.

Does that accommodation extend to standards expected of every other player when it comes to behaviour in a transfer negotiation? I’m asking where the line is, not saying that mental health isn’t important.

We’re also not even 100% sure that Richy’s mental health challenges were the reason for this post? Is it mental health? Is it emotional volatility? Are they the same thing?

If the club were known to be a terrible modern day environment for players with mental health issues, I’d get it, but we don’t hear anything about that. If anything we seem quite progressive in the area. I think this was just Richy’s error in posting publicly during a big negotiation. And in effect calling out the club…it’s unprofessional.

I think you need a unique plan for each individual.

Yes we are sure what promoted the post, or what was put in front of him. I think it likely Everton were trying to take the tinkle, we know they are struggling financially.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I think you need a unique plan for each individual.

Yes we are sure what promoted the post, or what was put in front of him. I think it likely Everton were trying to take the tinkle, we know they are struggling financially.

Spot on

 

[Muttley]

IMO it is not about latitude, it's about understanding the person you have and approaching the situation accordingly (man-management to a degree in a different arena). I believe RDZ's summer comments during the tour set a tone. I wish we'd been smarter there. I personally believe that after Romero last season, a club decision was made regarding players and SM. No more of that sort of speaking out. Which I agree with. As much as I thought Romero was saying the right things, he should not be saying them publicly to me or anyone; as you would likely say, that is being disrespectful to your employer. So I feel that the destination we arrived at with Richarlison has roots in the Romero stuff.

I wish Richy had not made that defensive post, but there were many who thought he was screwing up our Ndiaye move, plus he'd already been painted as an 'unreliable actor' earlier in the summer by Der Zerbi, publicly. I wish we'd made the decision back then not to bring him on tour. Made it clear it was done unless he signed an extension. That might've allowed us to make a greater decision on Lankshear, or step up a striker search earlier.

What's nice about the last sub-theme you wrote is that our club doesn't distinguish between whether it is the club captain or whether it is a player that would naturally be in the departure lounge. Every player needs to be beholding to the same standards. I felt exactly the same as you on Romero's past behaviours influencing the Richi outcome and I'm actually glad they did. Our club are setting higher standards than before on SM and that is a good thing. I think you were talking on one of the pods recently about looking beyond the 1st team results and seeing the good things. Player standards is there for me.

Not sure what you mean by unreliable actor but I do remember RDZ saying that Richi wouldn't make his mind up whether he wanted to stay or go. Did he say that he kept changing his mind or something like that?

My bigger picture view on this is that Richi shouldn't have even been given that choice. Him and his agent should have been told that they needed to find their player a new home at the end of last season. My niggling doubt on RDZ is about the kids that he has let go. In my mind Richi should be elsewhere and Lanks should be in our 1st team squad. That is a RDZ judgment call and I'm not sure he got it right.

 

[thfcsteff]

What's nice about the last sub-theme you wrote is that our club doesn't distinguish between whether it is the club captain or whether it is a player that would naturally be in the departure lounge. Every player needs to be beholding to the same standards. I felt exactly the same as you on Romero's past behaviours influencing the Richi outcome and I'm actually glad they did. Our club are setting higher standards than before on SM and that is a good thing. I think you were talking on one of the pods recently about looking beyond the 1st team results and seeing the good things. Player standards is there for me.

Agreed, and generally-speaking, it appears to be going well. Which is why this issue is actually magnified.

Not sure what you mean by unreliable actor but I do remember RDZ saying that Richi wouldn't make his mind up whether he wanted to stay or go. Did he say that he kept changing his mind or something like that?

Exactly. I think it was after the winner against Chelsea and he was asked about his plans for Richy, to which he came out with the 'I don't know what to think one min he wants to stay the next he wants to go' stuff, which I think should've been kept in house.

My bigger picture view on this is that Richi shouldn't have even been given that choice. Him and his agent should have been told that they needed to find their player a new home at the end of last season.

Have you not seen me say -several times- that I felt if the club did not want him they should've said in the summer that unless he signs the extension then he would not be going on pre-season and would not be in the squad? And that he definitely should not have gone on the pre-season tour? I mean, I agree with you and have said virtually the same thing!

My niggling doubt on RDZ is about the kids that he has let go. In my mind Richi should be elsewhere and Lanks should be in our 1st team squad. That is a RDZ judgment call and I'm not sure he got it right.

Which ties into the above point (summer clarity pre-tour) which I mentioned too.
Where we also might agree is that regardless of any views on the player, this whole thing has been mishandled, and had there been early summer clarity, he'd have been able to see Lankshear at close quarters as Richy would not have been on the plane and Will would've seen an opportunity (FWIW I think Boro's a great move for him, I don't believe he is Prem regular ready just yet, but in a season or two? Absolutely).

 

[Bishop]

Well, you won't have to think, we're going to see and hope (BTW totally different strikers but as you were)...

I'm not sure, he might reach for Solanke if it doesn't click soonish and I wasn't comparing them at all, just the claim that Richy is the best goal scorer at the club.

 

[Bishop]

I'd actually have a lot more respect if posters didn't play this card repeatedly. We've seen it a fair few times e.g. Ange, Frank etc.

There are endless pages of really objective and friendly conversations about Richi. It's been a fascinating topic and great contributions from pretty much everyone on GG.

It's actually quite disrespectful to fellow posters to bring it down to just liking or disliking Richi.

It's because they like him and can't fathom how someone might not rate him as a player but also at the same time have no personal beef against him. I don't rate Richy, but that doesn't mean I dislike him, I have no reason to. I just don't think he's a good player.

 

[billyiddo]

Exactly. I think it was after the winner against Chelsea and he was asked about his plans for Richy, to which he came out with the 'I don't know what to think one min he wants to stay the next he wants to go' stuff, which I think should've been kept in house.

It should have been - I'd have a different view if Richarlison had spoken out had the manager not been the first to speak. Ultimately RDZ decided to speak publicly and frame the situation how he saw fit, hence why i have sympathy for the player in this situation.

 

[Muttley]

It should have been - I'd have a different view if Richarlison had spoken out had the manager not been the first to speak. Ultimately RDZ decided to speak publicly and frame the situation how he saw fit, hence why i have sympathy for the player in this situation.

Do you not wonder though why the club, mostly through RDZ, spoke about a lot of player's dispositions about staying or leaving but only one player ultimately became a problem?

The contrast in behaviour between Richi and Bergval is staggering to me. Very similar situations but the young gun seemed to conduct himself brilliantly through a tough career decision. Did Richi?

 

[billyiddo]

Do you not wonder though why the club, mostly through RDZ, spoke about a lot of player's dispositions about staying or leaving but only one player ultimately became a problem?

The contrast in behaviour between Richi and Bergval is staggering to me. Very similar situations but the young gun seemed to conduct himself brilliantly through a tough career decision. Did Richi?

I don't think we can say each situation is the same - too many variables but regardless Bergvall, and any other player, have their own perogatives. Perhaps Bergvall didn't feel confident or didn't care what was said, doesn't mean that has to be true for Richarlison also.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I don't think we can say each situation is the same - too many variables but regardless Bergvall, and any other player, have their own perogatives. Perhaps Bergvall didn't feel confident or didn't care what was said, doesn't mean that has to be true for Richarlison also.

Yeh 100% this.

This summer saw a uniformed approach by some that decided that any player linked with a move away was in part because of their attitude, the same people said it about Richy, Spence, Bergvall and Vuskovic, frankly some of what was written was staggering TBH. Massively overplayed line that I think in part came down to people not liking them as players (or that was a coincidence)