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Mathys Tel

parklane1 said:
Of course we are but at the age he is its foolish [ at best] to say he never will, which seems to be the thoughts of some.
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I didn’t say never, my friend. I simply said I don’t see the qualities that others see in him that lead them to describe him as one of the top prospects in Europe, and I don’t see what all the hype is about.
 
Many wanted Neto a season or two ago, comparison last season.
Neto 2643 minutes played , 5 goals , one goal every 528 minutes
Tel 1342 minutes played , 4 goals, one goal every 335 minutes.
Neto does have a better assist record though.
Never understood why we sold Johnson, great goalscoring record for a wide forward.
 
I think we're into phase 3 with Tel.

Phase 1 was coming to Spurs when we weren't in a great place under Ange. It was supposed to be about Mathys coming in, hitting the ground running and being a 1st teamer after life on the bench at BM. Unfortunately, Sonny wasn't as injured like the rest of our team and kept being selected despite some really under par performances. Mathys did pull his weight at the end of that season but didn't pull up trees either.

Phase 2 was, despite the manager change and Sonny leaving, Mathys not being a preferred starter and barely being used from the bench. It was a realisation that the grass wasn't greener at Spurs and some unfair treatment from Frank. Realistically, Mathys should have just got his agent to get him out the club just like Bergwijn did. The bias we saw to Moura over Bergwijn was criminal in my mind. I think a few felt the same about Tel's treatment.

Phase 3 is about De Zerbi and Mathys striking up a working relationship. It's about RDZ nurturing him and making him feel loved, even though he'll probably be a rotated player. I think Spurs fans should be happy with that. Tel will get pitch time and he will contribute. No doubt in my mind. Who cares whether he's a European superstar or the next world beater. I reckon he's got great potential.
 
Bishop said:
If you read enough of these threads everyone is bloody world class, or exceptional or brilliant.

I thought you trusted Ange?

When people are comparing Son to Tel in Germany then I might be making an assumption but it's bloody strong one.

See I've really agreed with that view but probably because as I mentioned I specifically went and watched Son at Hamburg and Leverkusen due our prior link. I absolutely wanted him the summer he went to Leverkusen, if I still posted on Coys I could show you my posts at the time. I believed in him and knew what he was capable of because I had already seen it. As you might know I'm also not a believer in some sort of PL superiority where a player can't work. Son was always a good fit imo, he just had the perfect game style.
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You are absolutely right re: me and Ange TBH...I think the scars of Frank made Ange seem a lot longer ago, so yup, well-called.

So many factors affect a player's success, especially foreign players. Sonny was not only a decent fit but a prodigiously hard worker with quite possibly the best attitude I have ever seen from a Spurs player (incredible really). The fit is also very important; is there something which resonates regarding the intended style of play (as we've seen for many years, this has not always been the main driver behind a signing at our club sadly).

I think Tel had very exciting raw qualities at Bayern. I think he ticked some boxes for us and was a fairly simple, quality-potential signing. I think had he been part of a settled side/squad he'd have at least had more stanle development. As it is he was often thrown into pressure situations to help 'save' us. Even in this he showed increasing skill and a lack of fear, yet inexperience and pressure (added to environmental uncertainty) resulted in games like Leeds h where he was so effective and made a naive mistake which cost us.

I personally think he will develop into an excellent player. He is brave, can go outside, inside and his finishing is improving all the time. His attitude is top drawer from what I can see (this after the appalling way Frank treated him) and now we will have to see if he has won a way into DeZerbi's plans.
 
Jurgen the German said:
It’s been the same on this place for years. When Toby and Jan were approaching the end of their time here, people were seriously suggesting that Dier and Sánchez, or Dier and Foyth, were more than worthy replacements for a genuinely world-class pairing. I’d actually put both Toby and Jan in that bracket, especially given the way we discuss what qualifies as a top player.

People had already decided Sánchez was better than Toby when Pochettino benched Toby around the time he was renegotiating his contract. Poch was also being described as the best “pound-for-pound manager in the game”. Like you, I don’t see the need to overpraise everything connected with THFC just because it’s associated with the club.
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I believe Toby was overrated (not world class) and instead prospered from a very smart partner and robust system/manager who played people to the best of their abilities.
I don't recall Barca, RM or even Man U coming in for him.
I DO recall Poch denying Dier a move to Man U who were prepared to pay big money.
Romanticism goes all ways depending on who is opining is probably the truth here.
 
thfcsteff said:
I believe Toby was overrated (not world class) and instead prospered from a very smart partner and robust system/manager who played people to the best of their abilities.
I don't recall Barca, RM or even Man U coming in for him.
I DO recall Poch denying Dier a move to Man U who were prepared to pay big money.
Romanticism goes all ways depending on who is opining is probably the truth here.
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We had 2 Tobys in my opinion. The one that joined us was immense and was right up there with the best centre halves in the league. The post injury Toby that drifted into his early thirties wasn't the powerhouse. He got deeper and deeper and looked really vulnerable. I think the other clubs knew that his superpowers had wained because of that injury. He lost so much pace as well.
 
Bishop said:
Feel free to rate however you want, I just find the dichotomy frustrating when we have all of these world class players and top prospects but yet aren't winning the title every year at a canter or even challenging for it. Hell in recent seasons we aren't even challenging to be in the top half of the table. 😅

I just would like a dose of realism but cool, rate these guys to whatever fantastical level you think is appropriate but then don't complain (and this isn't directed specifically at you) when we and those players don't hit the heights that you must expect to reach given how they are rated.

I think the part that amuses me the most is the majority who make these claims don't even watch football outside of Spurs and the PL so how would they know who is a top prospect and who isn't. 🤣

I saw someone make a comparison between Son and Tel at this stage and I just shake my head. I actually watched Son when he went to Leverkusen because we were linked to him at Hamburg and the level of difference between him and Tel is significant and even then people doubted Son and weren't claiming he was one of the "top prospects" in the game. 🤣
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We’re fans. You’re literally describing being a fan.

As I’ve said to you before, your talents are clearly wasted on a forum and based on the tone you so often take I can only assume you’re mere days away from your rightful job as a football coach/scout/whatever.
 
thfcsteff said:
I believe Toby was overrated (not world class) and instead prospered from a very smart partner and robust system/manager who played people to the best of their abilities.
I don't recall Barca, RM or even Man U coming in for him.
I DO recall Poch denying Dier a move to Man U who were prepared to pay big money.
Romanticism goes all ways depending on who is opining is probably the truth here.
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Alderweireld was world class in my opinion, at least for a 2–3 year period during his time at Spurs. We even had the best defensive record in the league in one of those seasons.

Barcelona, Real Madrid or Manchester United never seriously came in for Son or Kane either. I have a theory that it may have been linked to our inability to get over the line in the biggest moments. Elite players are often judged by what they achieve on the biggest stages, and despite having the quality, we never quite managed to turn that into major trophies. The Manchester United links for Dier, in particular, always felt heavily driven by Mourinho.

Mourinho seemed to trust Dier as if he was a top-level defensive pillar, but his performances didn’t consistently justify that level of responsibility. That said, Mourinho backing Dier wasn’t the only reason he failed.

A bigger issue was Mourinho’s failure to properly rebuild the defence and his overestimation of players like Dier as foundations of the team. Once Alderweireld and Vertonghen declined or moved on, we lost the defensive stability and the team became far more vulnerable.
 
revlis said:
We’re fans. You’re literally describing being a fan.

As I’ve said to you before, your talents are clearly wasted on a forum and based on the tone you so often take I can only assume you’re mere days away from your rightful job as a football coach/scout/whatever.
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I get the impression he watches a lot of football and genuinely knows his stuff. I’d probably trust his opinion — or Finney’s — over almost any other poster’s.

I also think Bishop is right in pointing out that there’s a discrepancy between how highly certain players are rated by some posters and where we actually finished in the league. It’s possible to appreciate individual quality while also recognising that the overall results and achievements didn’t always match the level of praise some players received
 
thfcsteff said:
I believe Toby was overrated (not world class) and instead prospered from a very smart partner and robust system/manager who played people to the best of their abilities.
I don't recall Barca, RM or even Man U coming in for him.
I DO recall Poch denying Dier a move to Man U who were prepared to pay big money.
Romanticism goes all ways depending on who is opining is probably the truth here.
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He had the chance to join United in 2018.
 
Muttley said:
We had 2 Tobys in my opinion. The one that joined us was immense and was right up there with the best centre halves in the league. The post injury Toby that drifted into his early thirties wasn't the powerhouse. He got deeper and deeper and looked really vulnerable. I think the other clubs knew that his superpowers had wained because of that injury. He lost so much pace as well.
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I think that's a really fair appraisal.
 
Bishop said:
Hey we are Spurs we love to rate players with empty platitudes. I remember someone calling Tel exceptional last season. 🤣🤣🤣

The single best thing about the De Zerbi evolution is that we are actually going to see a raft of quality players join and so we can stop pretending that the mediocre ones are better than they actually are.

Tel is a young player with potential hell no is he one of the top prospects in Europe. That's entirely gas. Cubasi is a top prospect, Yamal is a top prospect, Endrick is a top prospect, Estavao is a top prospect, Franco Mastantuono is a top prospect, Barco is a top prospect, Quenda is a top prospect. You need to broaden your horizons a little bit if you really think Tel is considered either a top prospect or in the top 10 talents under 22, because he bloody isn't. 🤣
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Cheeky bid?!

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Bishop said:
Maybe he won't be, maybe he will be. No one actually knows. Only time will tell, but 21 isn't a baby in the professional sense. Many players have already made their mark by this stage(the top players generally) 😅
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And many players who have hit a top level at 21 also don't go on to sustain it. There's no point making comparisons to others as development and decline happens at different stages.

For me Tel has a lot of potential, he has a lot going for him - his mentality and ball technique being two big things. Whether it all comes to fruition nobody knows but mentality is an important aspect and he definitely has that so I'd say it's more than likely he will develop into a very good player. But as you say only time will Tel :) ....
 
robp135 said:
Think that was before.

Didnt Poch not play Alderwireld for a long period because he wouldn’t sign a new contract?
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It was (as I remember it at the time) because after his injury Poch said he was overweight and Toby disagreed. I know the fact he wouldn't sign a new contract was one reason Poch wanted him sold, ditto Eriksen.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I also think Bishop is right in pointing out that there’s a discrepancy between how highly certain players are rated by some posters and where we actually finished in the league. It’s possible to appreciate individual quality while also recognising that the overall results and achievements didn’t always match the level of praise some players received
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I think thats also a very simplistic way of looking at it.

History in football is full of very good player and very talented young players who have played in poor sides. Some of the players our fan base covert played in the championship on poor sides when we wanted them. So its not as simple as saying "well they can;t be that good, their team finished 17th twice" thats the kind of arguments people were having at school.

One player makes a team not
 
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