MartyFunkhouser
Vic Buckingham
Collectively though and tactically also.
Let's not pretend if you put Messi in Kane spot for the last 20 mins the impact changes. Its not as if Kane was a failed outlet, we sat back with what was effectively a back 7
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World Cup 2026: Mexico, USA and Canada
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
Let's not pretend if you put Messi in Kane spot for the last 20 mins the impact changes. Its not as if Kane was a failed outlet, we sat back with what was effectively a back 7
Dicko
Frederic Kanoute
Ah strikers, got it. Yeah thats rough. I guess Rio from Liverpool is one great hope for the wide forward area.
MartyFunkhouser
Vic Buckingham
Yeh sorry, I meant striker
Bishop
Paul Walsh
We agree and disagree. Largely in agreement but I don't think England are a possession side or a team that are particularly good when they have the ball and time. I don't think there is any selection that would rebalance possession in England's favour we just don't have those kind of players. Look at the tight spaces Argentina were playing inz England in comparison are all about playing it out wide and hoping to beat the defender.
I do agree with your suggested changes, adding Mainoo and Rashford and/or Saka would have given Argentina something to worry about on the counter but it wouldn't have changed the possession dynamics significantly. Argentina always out possess pretty much everyone they play.
Now could those changes have won the game, very possibly, we will never know now but I don't believe Tuchel wanted to get squeezed so deeply, he just didn't believe that the changes we have suggested would have worked so he went for more defensive strength rather than the better ball players but who I guess he felt might not get on the ball enough to make a difference but would also make us defensively weaker in his mind.
Bishop
Paul Walsh
If you swapped them I don't think it drastically changes but Messi is levels above Kane on the ball and having a Messi in your side is going to give his team mates more confidence in possession simply because he's on their team. So I do think you would have seen more possession counters, the type I imagine would have happened if Rashford or Saka had come on.
MartyFunkhouser
Vic Buckingham
He is levels above him but the point is our tactics are hugely prohibitive to ours and Kanes success. Not the other way
clownfoot
Niko Kranjcar
Let’s hope Lankshear has done enough for us to be in the conversation
thfcsteff
Ricky Villa
I think it lit a fire under a nation which realised it was wasting a generational talent.
England simply doesn't ever do that.
I thought a huge illustration of that last night was when Messi got bumped by Spence and Anderson. Down he went and immediately the entire Argentinian side swarmed the ref in sheer outrage that their King got touched. When Kane gets dumped to the turf no-one actually gives a fudge. Or Jude. For the record, I am NOT comparing the levels of talent, more the status each supposedly hold with their nations.
On a side-note, for me, the biggest sub Argentina made in terms of turning the screw was De Paul. Elite brickhouser but also an excellent crosser from that 'angle' outside the corner of the box. He also gave Messi a further foil to operate. Obviously Martinez wins the prize for scoring, but De Paul really helped kick them into another level of pressure for me.
Muttley
Chris Armstrong
Does Kane do his bit to enable England's tactics though? Whilst I feel sorry for him plundering as a lone striker in a 4-5-1 defending a 1-0 lead yesterday there have been many times in an England shirt where Kane hasn't performed well in open play. He does get goals consistently though.
We can't change the past but we do need to plot a path forward and figure this thing out. We could go the Argentina path and build a team around a luxury Kane and live with the consequences. I bet if you spoke to Lauturo Martinez, he would tell you that if he'd started that game then Argies would have not found themselves almost going out of the Word Cup. Had Messi rightfully been sent off earlier in the comp then he would have shown everyone what a great striker he is. England don't have a Lauturo though. Shame Spurs didn't get him to replace Kane.
At the end of the day, England's key man in this world cup has been Bellingham. It is one thing playing a Mason Mount to be Kane's legs like we did in 2021. It's a completely different thing to compromise Jude for Kane moving forward at least in my mind. Tuchel needs to knit some of this together better with this level of player but I do think there needs to be more compromise from his star players. Kane can't be the exception for me. He has to listen to his manager and do what he's told.
If Delap is England's future then we're probably in trouble. lol, perhaps Lanks is the successor to the throne.
thfcsteff
Ricky Villa
Exactly.
The way Tuchel was operating last night, he effectively sold Kane out for the last 25 mins. As has been pointed out, Harry is NOT what you want in a 4-5-1 sitting deep, Watkins would've been a much better choice. Of course, my preferred option would've been to replace the wingers and swap out Rice with Mainoo to maintain some sort of leverage in taking/at least meeting the game-state higher up the pitch, which in turn perhaps allows Kane to start dropping into those pockets where he can pick a pass or ghost a run as Argentina chase down Rashford and either Saka or Madueke (who has not been great but would've been a damnsight better than fudging Konsa slinging the ball in).
Bedfordspurs
Bert Smith
Those chances were after we scored
They also hit the post twice
He hasn’t influenced the semis
But he hasn’t had a team that has influenced them either. That’s true too
Yesterday was 100% about the manager imo
Naive mistakes form a smart, very good coach
thfcsteff
Ricky Villa
I am intrigued as to what you mean by 'he has to listen to his manager and do what he's told'?
I think Kane did too much of that with Tuchel TBH. He trogged along last night in that desperate last 30 mins where he did, indeed, look utterly ineffective. Meanwhile, Argentina brought subs on to make the very most of what Messi can do in terms of playing a perfect pass or cross.
Bedfordspurs
Bert Smith
And it’s easier when that defence is a mess and you have the freedom of the pitch suddenly
No one snapping at you and stopping you playing
MartyFunkhouser
Vic Buckingham
Kane is not responsible for the subs and to expect anyone to lead a line of 2 with what ultimately became a back 6, I mean yeh we can question if Kane still has it, if we have to carry him sometimes, not last night though, we utterly shat the bed tactically.
Kane isn't going to last forever, I am ok with that, but he is still an absolutely fabulous player with alot to offer
thfcsteff
Ricky Villa
They're different players, I mean I know you know that but it seems to bear repeating.
On the counter, with refreshed wingers and someone like Mainoo to carry and hopefully feed quickly, perhaps Kane would've found the pockets to play those passes that only he can play.
Let's face it, we AGAIN found ourselves at a World Cup where the best passer in the team was not in midfield. How can that be? How can we as a nation have this curious state of affairs? I end up back at the squad selection, which almost put me off following the tournament it was so weird and (IMO anyway) wrong. I mean, Wharton is not Hoddle but he can pass the ball very well, and Thomas saw no need for him???
MartyFunkhouser
Vic Buckingham
We settled for the lead and wanted to spend 30 mins defending, not sure how it can be argued any other way. To lay any of it at Kane on last night is MENTAL. Any other point about him and his best days being behind him, thats sensible, last night? Na man, I can't be having it
Bedfordspurs
Bert Smith
Not sure Konsa touched the ball
That was odd and then some
Bedfordspurs
Bert Smith
He doesn’t dates Mainoo imo and took him to fill a quota of players
If he rated him he would have okayed him instead of James in midfield IMO
Baleforce
Joe Kinnear
He put a couple of crap crosses in.
He certainly didn’t touch it when his man headed the winner unchallenged.
thfcsteff
Ricky Villa
I agree with that (and probably should've been clearer that I did not think we could out-possess a midfield which included Fernandez and McAllister), but we should certainly have aimed to have more possession than we had, at the very least had someone in our squad/on the pitch who could slow the tempo and simply keep the ball for passages of time/manage the game better. Of course again we're back at the squad choices, and it was clear he was not going to play that way.
And yes, absolutely, he did not believe. Which is essentially my main problem. We have once again ended up with caution. I'd rather have had Southgate in charge of this match TBH.
Once again, regardless of their aggression, etc, I hold my hands up to Argentina for their sheer desire, belief and force of will, which starts with Scaloni. Obviously it also helps that they are the incumbents LOL, but if there's any Englishman who can tell me that after the 65th minute they felt it was going to finish 1-0, I'll be looking at a delusional person because it was absolutely inevitable, to the point I was almost hoping we'd concede on 75-80 mins so as we'd have a chance to reset and get back on track!