robp135
Goran Bunjevcevic
What should that look like and should he only be implemented if the wider public are on board? Meaning it’s a platform for a political party that gains power.
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Sick sick world what is wrong with people
- Thread starter Danishfurniturelover
- Start date
What should that look like and should he only be implemented if the wider public are on board? Meaning it’s a platform for a political party that gains power.
thfcsteff
Ricky Villa
robp135
Goran Bunjevcevic
Well what then?
I’m not deliberatly avoiding I genuinely don’t know what claim you are referring to can you quote it back it me?
tommysvr
John Lacy
Hold up, so you’re saying it was his nationality or race?
thfcsteff
Ricky Villa
Because it is directly provocative and achieves nothing of any positivity here. It simply drives a bigger wedge.
Come on, you're a smart person, this has NOTHING to do with 'convenience'. It has everything to do with reactivity.
Sorry, these sorts of hard definitions are part of where the problems and divide come from. I am VERY uncomfortable throwing labels around about people we don't know outside this forum. I don't know Marky from anywhere other than this forum. We clearly disagree on several issues, but I personally would not throw labels on him whatsoever, and I personally don't think bringing people's families into any opinion one might want to share is in order at all.
That's my 'why' and I think if you take a step back, you might arrive at a similar conclusion.
thfcsteff
Ricky Villa
Have to say I agree with so much of this. Addressing the bold-faced above...I actually think we have some people who are angry/fearful and fed rhetoric which exacerbates that. I might be naive, but I don't think we have any stone-cold racists on this forum; I think we have some people who need better and clearer information and perspective. Which let's face it, is very hard to find. And to the end of your point, those polar definitions absolutely destroy ANY hope for middle ground discussion about issues such as immigration, religion, nationality, multiculturalism. We end up with block statements (born of fear IMO) that 'multiculturalism doesn't work' (when all the evidence clearly, clearly shows it does), and on and on...
Like you, I really hope everyone can take a step back and stop throwing s hit at each other. It's getting ugly out there because some hardline ar seholes are manipulating horrific actions and tragedies as and when they choose.
A final thought...mental health is at an absolute crisis point globally right now. Covid and now the continual degradation of societies by a few extraordinarily rich and powerful 'people' resulting in millions getting poorer and finding life harder. Lines crack wider, things which barely held together fall apart...and those issues, mental health and poverty, are not interested in where you're from or what you believe. They come for you regardless. And until we stop acting like cannibals, until we see who and what is doing this to all of us, I fear the journey is going to get worse.
Let's TRY to make a stand here can we??? Now apologies, I have to go and get my lentil stew which requires uncrossing my legs on this pillow
robp135
Goran Bunjevcevic
Sudan is a poor war torn country with limited education. People that grew up in that environment tend to be more violent. It’s rare for anyone to be capable of that level of violence without some level of trauma likely in childhood. So yes someone that is Sudanese is more likely to carry out an act that violent than someone born into a safe country.
robp135
Goran Bunjevcevic
Immigration and the diversity that comes from it for the most part is an incredibly positive thing. I count myself very lucky to have grown up in North London where just in my primary school class alone I had Turkish and African Muslims, Indian Hindus, Greek Cypriot & Iranian Christians, Jews, Northern and Eastern Europeans as well as your regular WASPS. I went to Catholic secondary school but you still have people of different races and nationalitys. I played for a Greek football team. My cricket club had many Sihks. My next door neighbours Jewish on one side and Greek on the other.
Then I became the immigrant. Which I know is a different experience for a white English speaker from a financially comfortable family. But you still get to see things from the other side. I went to Spain and was at an International school with kids from all over the world. I played on a Spanish football team where I was the only non fluent Spanish speaker. Then to the US which has come to be my home. Some places more diverse than others. The Hispanic culture mostly on the west coast and my wife is part Mexican. My Dad is Irish. Grandparents on my mothers side born in Portugal.
I am still good friends with people from all of these places today. This week I was talking to the African Muslim guy I went to primary school with, that I have not seen since I was 11 via instagram, about Andy Robertson becausse he is a Liverpool fan.
Without even realising I got engrossed in all these different ways of thinking and understandings of the world and life. I’ve tried all different types of foods and not just at restaurants. The Mums cooking is always the best. I will say the quiet part out loud as well…..white English girls are typically less attractive so I’ve been around way more beautiful women in my life because of it too! Fair to say mixed race people tend to be very attractive which I beleive is Gods way of telling us to blend together.
When it works it’s the absolute best.But when it doesnt can be a disaster and right now it’s just not working and that’s globally.
There is more of an awareness and understanding of other races, culture and education etc than ever before but I can say pretty confidently that there is more tension between the races than ever before. Are you better off as a minority or an immigrant living in the UK, US or anywhere else than you were in the 70’s? Almost certainly. Are you better off than in the 90’s. I suspect it’s a no.
A major part is due to social media, internet and cable news. The bad actors looking to profit of division. But they needed a market to appeal to. Donald Trump and Nigel Farage invent immigration fears. Some of that comes from immigrants in some cases have overtaken the children of the native population in terms of wealth and it breeds jealousy.
But there are some other reasons and this is where the agreement will probably end.
Things went too far with DEI and Anti Racism initiatives. They were needed but it went over board. Things that were British/Christian traditons, holidays and history that became less prominent. There was a period of time where Winston Churchill was not a major part of the British curriculum. Then you had a response to a police killing on another continent which influenced police messaging in the UK. It’s little stuff but it all adds up.
The crimes commited by immigrants do get highlighted. Should we treat them differently to crimes commited by natives. I’d argue yes for people not born here and particularly those here illegally. But even if you don’t, when you look at something like the grooming gangs you have to remember how it was downplayed and classed as a wild conspiracy 10 years ago.
You then have some muslim immigrant populations, where in large numbers they moved to the same towns or parts of cities on mass. They typically have large families and were able to bring them over. Those family members along with some new immigrants from that part of the world come to the UK and head straight to those enclaves and never assimilate. Unfortunatley, some parts of their culture and just so out of sync with British values held by natives and immigrants from western/Christian counties.
To be clear, the vast majority Muslims worldwide and immigrants are good people. But overall, Muslim men from certain countries are more likely to be an issue and that is based on culture. Islam is more violent than the other major religions. It’s less tolerant of non believers. Its views on women are more backwards. They tend to be poorer war torn countries with low education and rates of childhood trauma. For some nationalities there is a very high percentage of incest which creates all sorts of biological and genetic issues which can lead to more anti social and violent behaviour.
The issue is, all immigrants are grouped together. When you hear the line about “immigrants commit less crime than the native population” that’s not differentiating where someone has come from and how they came in to the country. A female nurse from Africa that came here legally is the same as the guy that’s come over in a boat with no passport. Break that down and all of a sudden those per capita crime stats will tell a very different story.
Then I became the immigrant. Which I know is a different experience for a white English speaker from a financially comfortable family. But you still get to see things from the other side. I went to Spain and was at an International school with kids from all over the world. I played on a Spanish football team where I was the only non fluent Spanish speaker. Then to the US which has come to be my home. Some places more diverse than others. The Hispanic culture mostly on the west coast and my wife is part Mexican. My Dad is Irish. Grandparents on my mothers side born in Portugal.
I am still good friends with people from all of these places today. This week I was talking to the African Muslim guy I went to primary school with, that I have not seen since I was 11 via instagram, about Andy Robertson becausse he is a Liverpool fan.
Without even realising I got engrossed in all these different ways of thinking and understandings of the world and life. I’ve tried all different types of foods and not just at restaurants. The Mums cooking is always the best. I will say the quiet part out loud as well…..white English girls are typically less attractive so I’ve been around way more beautiful women in my life because of it too! Fair to say mixed race people tend to be very attractive which I beleive is Gods way of telling us to blend together.
When it works it’s the absolute best.But when it doesnt can be a disaster and right now it’s just not working and that’s globally.
There is more of an awareness and understanding of other races, culture and education etc than ever before but I can say pretty confidently that there is more tension between the races than ever before. Are you better off as a minority or an immigrant living in the UK, US or anywhere else than you were in the 70’s? Almost certainly. Are you better off than in the 90’s. I suspect it’s a no.
A major part is due to social media, internet and cable news. The bad actors looking to profit of division. But they needed a market to appeal to. Donald Trump and Nigel Farage invent immigration fears. Some of that comes from immigrants in some cases have overtaken the children of the native population in terms of wealth and it breeds jealousy.
But there are some other reasons and this is where the agreement will probably end.
Things went too far with DEI and Anti Racism initiatives. They were needed but it went over board. Things that were British/Christian traditons, holidays and history that became less prominent. There was a period of time where Winston Churchill was not a major part of the British curriculum. Then you had a response to a police killing on another continent which influenced police messaging in the UK. It’s little stuff but it all adds up.
The crimes commited by immigrants do get highlighted. Should we treat them differently to crimes commited by natives. I’d argue yes for people not born here and particularly those here illegally. But even if you don’t, when you look at something like the grooming gangs you have to remember how it was downplayed and classed as a wild conspiracy 10 years ago.
You then have some muslim immigrant populations, where in large numbers they moved to the same towns or parts of cities on mass. They typically have large families and were able to bring them over. Those family members along with some new immigrants from that part of the world come to the UK and head straight to those enclaves and never assimilate. Unfortunatley, some parts of their culture and just so out of sync with British values held by natives and immigrants from western/Christian counties.
To be clear, the vast majority Muslims worldwide and immigrants are good people. But overall, Muslim men from certain countries are more likely to be an issue and that is based on culture. Islam is more violent than the other major religions. It’s less tolerant of non believers. Its views on women are more backwards. They tend to be poorer war torn countries with low education and rates of childhood trauma. For some nationalities there is a very high percentage of incest which creates all sorts of biological and genetic issues which can lead to more anti social and violent behaviour.
The issue is, all immigrants are grouped together. When you hear the line about “immigrants commit less crime than the native population” that’s not differentiating where someone has come from and how they came in to the country. A female nurse from Africa that came here legally is the same as the guy that’s come over in a boat with no passport. Break that down and all of a sudden those per capita crime stats will tell a very different story.
thfcsteff
Ricky Villa
You can say that about any socio-economically broken urban area in Western Europe too.
I think it'd be a huge step forward if people started seeing the major common threads between people who commit these acts are poverty, trauma, and mental health. You say Sudan, I say Sunderland and Steve Grieveson...or Swindon and Christopher Halliwell...or Swansea and Brian Whitlock. Essentially, IF you want to line up that perspective, IMO you'd have to start locking up anyone who comes from deprivation, poverty, trauma and perhaps lacks education. And THAT is totalitarian horror. Who judges who can 'be here' or 'not' based on those metrics? How many innocent people get prejudged for the despicable actions of a few? Yeah, not in my lifetime I hope. We must try harder than just think a quick slapped-label and 'not you son' is going to do the trick.
tommysvr
John Lacy
That’s enviroment, not nationality or race. The same way a violence environment could affect any person of any nationality or race.
thfcsteff
Ricky Villa
Just read this, will read it again in the next day or so because it deserves some time.
I hope the effort taken to explain and articulate your views for the sake of open discussion is recognised.
I think there are some truths in the second part and also some clear, clear reasons why these things have happened. The overreach with DEI, etc? That's because for far far too long nobody cared whatsoever and the system(s) was/were enormously unfair and prejudiced. I wholly disagree with your George Floyd/police conflation as you know. I am old enough to remember the SPG and their like. The Windrush generation hold horror stories. There was massive institutional racism in the police force and it needed sorting. As for the assimilation/lack of, much of that also comes from an outside hostility which creates fear, which creates isolation. It's happening now, again, and the isolation will become worse for it.
Again, there is lots of cause and effect behind much of what you've mentioned. When it comes to extremism in any culture, I think we're all in the same place; no thank you.
And that is what I hope we arrive at, a place with tolerance for all and a place where discussion can lead to positive change. For sure I disagree with several things you've said in the second-half, however I personally appreciate your efforts to honestly articulate yourself.
robp135
Goran Bunjevcevic
We live in a democracy. It’s for the people to decide and the government to act accordingly.
robp135
Goran Bunjevcevic
Someones nationality plays a large part in the environment they are in.
tommysvr
John Lacy
How? So if a Sudanese person migrates to Australia, are they destined to forever be defined by the fact that we're born in a war-torn country? Nationality is just flimflam here. It's a made up thing. If you think you can define people based on it, that makes you a xenophobe.