Xavi Simons

[thfcsteff]

Yes, I think the issues with Xavi primarily are down to his adapting to the league and the general poor quality of our attacking players/creative midfielders around him. Frank has a proven track record of making his attacks work - he had a high turnover of attacking players at Brentford throughout his time there and with each rebuild he got them functioning, I think during his 5 or so years there he had 3 or 4 different attacking units and they were all effective - you don't do that by accident.

We agree to disagree, as I don't think Frank and players like Xavi are a good fit.

 

[billyiddo]

We agree to disagree, as I don't think Frank and players like Xavi are a good fit.

Personally I don't see Xavi making it as a playmaker in the PL, at least he's not ready to play that sort of role yet, which isn't a manager issue it's player/time issue - i think he'll end up similar to Son, coming in from out wide finding space for the shot or playing one-twos around the edge of box to break in on goal/find a final pass. In that sense Benrahma best matches Xavi and done very well at Brentford eg a ball carrying wide player/attacking mid who creates in the final third and shoots from distance by cutting/drifting inside.

Edit : only a short spell but Eriksen was at Brentford and had a big impact there, they tried to sign him permanently but United came in. - to offer an example of a creative no.10.


So yeah, definitely agree to disagree.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

For me, Xavi is the epitome of a Tottenham player. Exciting, unpredictable, maverick. That celebration on Saturday and seeing the south stand (in particular) explode around him is exactly what I want from my club. We’ve always talked about “The Tottenham Way” and that in my eyes is exactly what we get from him. If we go down, I really hope we can hold onto him as I believe he could be the key to the start of a new culture that we as a club seem to have forgotten.

Yeah, this is it for me too, when he got on the ball and cut in there was that energy, the expectation that something special *could* happen here. Ginola, Bale, that sort of feeling when they get on the ball, and for our second, it was Bale/Sonesque, cutting inside just to make the angle for the shot and as soon as it left his boot you're thinking "this could be in" and seeing that ball hit the net i felt an energy i haven't felt in a loooong time. The seeds of "water this and look after it and we might have our Tottenham back"

 

[Benny_Lad]

It’s probably been said since the game but Xavi actually worked on the left for one reason - he had a left footed left back behind him. The difference it makes to balance, shape, etc with the overlap. With Spence behind him, Xavi was often the widest player where he can’t hurt you.

Having that extra option opens up the whole pitch.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

It’s probably been said since the game but Xavi actually worked on the left for one reason - he had a left footed left back behind him. The difference it makes to balance, shape, etc with the overlap. With Spence behind him, Xavi was often the widest player where he can’t hurt you.

Having that extra option opens up the whole pitch.

Who knew building a balanced team works even sometimes over the ability of the individual players involved? I know it might seem strange than kolo muani keeps getting picked but i think being the only fit player comfortable playing in the right wing/forward position has a lot to do with it. Question as to when does questionable form etc outweigh natural shape and balance?

 

[Benny_Lad]

Who knew building a balanced team works even sometimes over the ability of the individual players involved? I know it might seem strange than kolo muani keeps getting picked but i think being the only fit player comfortable playing in the right wing/forward position has a lot to do with it. Question as to when does questionable form etc outweigh natural shape and balance?

Yeah outside of Tel I’m not sure who else would go there.

Annoyingly I do think he has something. When he powered round the outside of the LB on Saturday he showed good pace.

Just all too fleetingly and with a general lack of overall effort.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I think you have to go back to the last third of last season. When Ange got his players back from injury he came up with a game plan to win the EL. If he had implemented that across the league setup then I'd be with you guys to a certain extent. He was stubborn and he knew that his league strategy wasn't yielding results. He knew that he could have got it all a bit more pragmatic and got a lower block and more of a counter into that setup. That would have yielded better results. So the changed team (for the league) would take to the field, go all gung-ho, go a couple of goals down and then quit on the games. Classic losing culture from Ange, made worse by him putting an arm round their shoulders and telling them everything would be OK. Then he'd go and pick a fight with the journo's in the pressers as we went into free-fall in the league.

As we saw from Xavi, if you're a winner it has to hurt badly when you lose in football. You need to be able to learn lessons and improve from losing football matches. None of that happened under Ange in the league last season. He was even getting his players to expend more energy by playing the way they did in the league. It didn't need to be one or the other, and the league hangover clearly impacted this season.

Spurs need to get rid of this losing culture once and for all. It is not acceptable at any level of a winning football club.

I believe Ange was trying to maintain some semblance of the principles that made up our cultural foundation. The bravery and the refusal to compromise and the fact that a lot of the players joined because they wanted to play this way, he wanted to maintain enough of that as possible so that we had those foundations to go into for season 3 and beyond. He was thinking long term. He still wanted us to have an identity and he has commented on this, saying that if he compromises easily then it’s hard to ask the players to be brave in the moments that demand it because he would have already shown they can just disregard it when it looks too difficult. Winning a trophy playing a way teams in the Europa usually win was one thing, but he didn’t want to throw everything out in the league matches just to get a couple more points in a written off league season, when it could have had costs the next season and longer term.

I get you disagree with this. But I genuinely think that’s where Ange was coming from. Your view is that he allowed a culture of losing to creep in. I think Ange’s view is that by compromising he would have diluted the foundations that made us competitive and that would have had longer term costs. I liken it to Ten Hag, who absolutely junked any semblance of philosophy at United and as a result they had absolutely no identity. And I don’t think his project ever really took off there.

That’s why I have issue with ENIC and the decision to get rid of Ange. He did a lot of things last season that should have paid off longer term, if people actually understood what he was doing or trusted in his methods. He was leaving behind a brave team with experience of winning a trophy. And we just went in a completely different direction.

Clearly Xavi was hurt conceding that goal against Brighton. Because we’re likely to get relegated. That’s the stakes. Last season though the players were clearly bought into the plan. That’s a key difference.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Reading this thread and some others it’s clear that people are taking the easy option of blaming Frank, almost solely, for where we are.

The stats, the trend, the performances has all been downhill for a while. It depends which data points you want to use but you could say it’s been on a downhill trend since Poch left but with the odd positive spike as the outlier - Conte qualifying for Champions league, Ange finishing 5th in his first season. Or, some would say that it’s been a downward trend over the last 3 seasons mostly. I don’t think either kind of thinking sends you far wrong.

This idea that we were in a good place, and nothing was Ange’s fault, it was all just injuries etc is nonsense to me. We’ve been tending downward for a while. Franks had injuries too, but it’s easier to blame him for us potentially going down because he was here the season it happened.

We won a trophy last season, it was fantastic. One of, if not my favourite moment ever in my lifetime. However when you look at it logically, and explain that, whilst it was a great achievement but not a true barometer of where we are as a club, you’re told you’re not a real fan and diminishing our achievements. Forest and Palace look like they might win European trophies as well this season. Frank had us, was it 4th? In the Champions league early stages, and bar Kinsky having a nightmare 15 minutes I think we would have gone past Atletico as well. It’s almost like there’s more to it than just piling it on the manager you don’t like and absolving the one you do like.

We finished 17th last season, we’re likely to finish this season 18th. The main difference isn’t injuries, it’s that last season the bottom three were so poor that no one else in the league were ever really in serious danger. If the bottom three this season were about last season there’s a good chance I’d wager we would have dropped then. There should have been huge action in the summer to pull us away from where we were headed. It was a warning.

Should we have sacked Ange after winning a trophy? Maybe not. However I think had we continued with him I have zero doubt we would be in the same place now, im not buying it would have all picked up again this year with players back. We would likely have still had injury issues, and would have likely been sat here saying we should ditch the league to focus on the CL whilst still sleepwalking into relegation.

Our problems aren’t because of any one manager, our problems are due to years of complete mismanagement at the very top, where we haven’t capitalised on our brief successes, we have made good money from the stadium which we have then invested poorly in numerous badly thought out systems and chopping and changing of managers resulting in a mismatched squad of players who have some, albeit limited, levels of quality meaning we just aren’t that great on the pitch. We have elevated a ‘leadership’ team who, whilst good players have shown very little to no skills in terms of actually being leaders.

Essentially what I’m saying is, whilst I was never sure Frank was the right fit. Pointing the finger at him and saying this is on him is unfair and probably a sign that people just don’t like him. The reality of it is that you learn very quickly at this club that if you’re truly pointing the finger of blame here, it’s right across the board, and you actually just need a lot more fingers.

(Sorry, Xavi thread, but still)

I think the decision to appoint Frank is the symptom of a larger collective headloss at the club. I think Frank absolutely has a lot of responsibility, but I agree it’s not just on him.

Where I take issue though is this idea was that the trend would always have us in this position. Because it requires assuming our squad is actually a 17th / 18th placed quality squad. And that’s just not true, in any universe. What has happened to us is something much more profound, something deeper. Having awkward changes of direction and no through line from one manager to the next, or signing young players to replace departed experienced quality, these are all things that might explain a drop to mid table. Not getting relegated.

The only thing that actually explains how bad this has gone is a complete removal of culture, confidence, identity, spirit. Call it what you like, but it is a mental and somewhat intangible thing about team sports that we completely gave up, and we gave it up willingly when there was no need.

It’s not like Frank is so bad tactically or whatever that he was out of his depth in this league, clearly he has done ok with Brentford. But the point is he was such a bad appointment, considering where the squad was mentally last summer, and what they had been left with, that I think it ruined every intangible, cultural, foundational aspect the team.

To go through what the players went through last season was an immense psychological event. It was a ‘thing’. A thing that should have been understood and appreciated for what it was. If you don’t think it was a thing (and the club didn’t) and you just see a team that under performed in the league but pulled a trophy out of the bag in the second tier competition, you probably make the exact moves the club made. But if you understand it was a thing, where because of what the players went through with injuries, and they were asked to keep believing in each other, to keep believing in their idea, to work together to become legends of the club and get their picture’s on the walls of the stadium, to know that even though they kept getting hit with relentless negativity all through the season that they would be winners at the end. And to then have it all happen. If you understand that, and what they went through, you don’t appoint Thomas Frank. Or if you do appoint him, you don’t expect him to say things like ‘we will lose games’ or ‘we’re turning around a tanker. We’re not a real champions league club, we finished 17th last year’.

In every respect, Frank was a terrible custodian of what was left behind by the previous manager. He probably doesn’t even realise he did it, but he systematically destroyed everything that was left behind. These players went through that massive psychological event and were winners, and probably felt amazing. And then they were told they actually weren’t that good. They went from inspiration and bravery to risk aversion. They went from aggression to caution. And they went from a winner to someone that had never won anything or operated at their level.

As I said, if you believe last season was a ‘thing’, then you don’t make the moves the club made. The only thing that explains a relegation is a complete mental breakdown of the team. This wasn’t inevitable. This is not because the players are all so bad. The club chose this direction. Because they didn’t understand what happened last season in my view.

To bring it back to Xavi, and to be fair to the club, I think signing players like him and Gallagher shows they are clearly trying to push the boat out on wages a bit more. They were trying to change one aspect of what has previously held us back. And even that should normally prevent us from being relegated, because we’re signing higher quality. But by failing to recognise and understand what happened last season, these signings are ineffective and meaningless because they’re in a team with no culture, identity, belief, confidence, any foundation whatsoever. And that was because the club chose to blow it all up willingly.

 

[Muttley]

I believe Ange was trying to maintain some semblance of the principles that made up our cultural foundation. The bravery and the refusal to compromise and the fact that a lot of the players joined because they wanted to play this way, he wanted to maintain enough of that as possible so that we had those foundations to go into for season 3 and beyond. He was thinking long term. He still wanted us to have an identity and he has commented on this, saying that if he compromises easily then it’s hard to ask the players to be brave in the moments that demand it because he would have already shown they can just disregard it when it looks too difficult. Winning a trophy playing a way teams in the Europa usually win was one thing, but he didn’t want to throw everything out in the league matches just to get a couple more points in a written off league season, when it could have had costs the next season and longer term.

I get you disagree with this. But I genuinely think that’s where Ange was coming from. Your view is that he allowed a culture of losing to creep in. I think Ange’s view is that by compromising he would have diluted the foundations that made us competitive and that would have had longer term costs. I liken it to Ten Hag, who absolutely junked any semblance of philosophy at United and as a result they had absolutely no identity. And I don’t think his project ever really took off there.

That’s why I have issue with ENIC and the decision to get rid of Ange. He did a lot of things last season that should have paid off longer term, if people actually understood what he was doing or trusted in his methods. He was leaving behind a brave team with experience of winning a trophy. And we just went in a completely different direction.

Clearly Xavi was hurt conceding that goal against Brighton. Because we’re likely to get relegated. That’s the stakes. Last season though the players were clearly bought into the plan. That’s a key difference.

I do understand what you're saying. However, for me Ange was just full of these narratives that you talk about and they never yielded anything. They sound good when you're in a presser and it's an audience with Ange the story teller. However, on a Tuesday morning at training where are they then? Where is the top to bottom football strategy transcending through every age group in the club? Where is the ability to interchange players seamlessly and they all get your football philosophy? For me, Ange just couldn't admit that his "Ange ball" or various adaptations of it wasn't working in the PL. He was like an oil tanker turning when it came to switching tactics. That is compensating for the injuries / fatigue periods. He never adapted in the final third of last season. I still saw 3 centre mids charging around on the high press and getting picked off. I saw the inverted full-backs getting done on the outside? I saw the centre halves so obsessed holding his precious line in deep playing areas that the offside trap was broken time after time. All they wanted to do was what they had been taught all their careers and defend properly using their football intelligence, not obsess about a line on the 18 yard box.

Quite honestly, where exactly were these foundations after 2 years in charge?

We won the trophy because we quite rightly parked the bus and edged a game against another team that mostly parked the bus and played on the counter. I'll take any trophy to be fair but will never delude myself that if Ange had a 3rd pre-season we would have made progress. He just wasn't competent enough as a coach. He was a short term motivator in the latter stages of the cup when we needed that though. I'll always give him that and the fact he kept us scoring at the same rate after Harry left. The guy was an absolute joke with the defensive side though.

 

[Rafa87]

I think the decision to appoint Frank is the symptom of a larger collective headloss at the club. I think Frank absolutely has a lot of responsibility, but I agree it’s not just on him.

Where I take issue though is this idea was that the trend would always have us in this position. Because it requires assuming our squad is actually a 17th / 18th placed quality squad. And that’s just not true, in any universe. What has happened to us is something much more profound, something deeper. Having awkward changes of direction and no through line from one manager to the next, or signing young players to replace departed experienced quality, these are all things that might explain a drop to mid table. Not getting relegated.

The only thing that actually explains how bad this has gone is a complete removal of culture, confidence, identity, spirit. Call it what you like, but it is a mental and somewhat intangible thing about team sports that we completely gave up, and we gave it up willingly when there was no need.

It’s not like Frank is so bad tactically or whatever that he was out of his depth in this league, clearly he has done ok with Brentford. But the point is he was such a bad appointment, considering where the squad was mentally last summer, and what they had been left with, that I think it ruined every intangible, cultural, foundational aspect the team.

To go through what the players went through last season was an immense psychological event. It was a ‘thing’. A thing that should have been understood and appreciated for what it was. If you don’t think it was a thing (and the club didn’t) and you just see a team that under performed in the league but pulled a trophy out of the bag in the second tier competition, you probably make the exact moves the club made. But if you understand it was a thing, where because of what the players went through with injuries, and they were asked to keep believing in each other, to keep believing in their idea, to work together to become legends of the club and get their picture’s on the walls of the stadium, to know that even though they kept getting hit with relentless negativity all through the season that they would be winners at the end. And to then have it all happen. If you understand that, and what they went through, you don’t appoint Thomas Frank. Or if you do appoint him, you don’t expect him to say things like ‘we will lose games’ or ‘we’re turning around a tanker. We’re not a real champions league club, we finished 17th last year’.

In every respect, Frank was a terrible custodian of what was left behind by the previous manager. He probably doesn’t even realise he did it, but he systematically destroyed everything that was left behind. These players went through that massive psychological event and were winners, and probably felt amazing. And then they were told they actually weren’t that good. They went from inspiration and bravery to risk aversion. They went from aggression to caution. And they went from a winner to someone that had never won anything or operated at their level.

As I said, if you believe last season was a ‘thing’, then you don’t make the moves the club made. The only thing that explains a relegation is a complete mental breakdown of the team. This wasn’t inevitable. This is not because the players are all so bad. The club chose this direction. Because they didn’t understand what happened last season in my view.

To bring it back to Xavi, and to be fair to the club, I think signing players like him and Gallagher shows they are clearly trying to push the boat out on wages a bit more. They were trying to change one aspect of what has previously held us back. And even that should normally prevent us from being relegated, because we’re signing higher quality. But by failing to recognise and understand what happened last season, these signings are ineffective and meaningless because they’re in a team with no culture, identity, belief, confidence, any foundation whatsoever. And that was because the club chose to blow it all up willingly.

All well written and all fair enough and it’s fine that this is your view. I don’t agree with the idea of the ‘thing’ as you describe it, I believe there was ‘a thing’ but to me it’s not the one you mention.

However, and I hope you don’t mind, I’m not going to go down the Ange vs Frank vs club route again, I think they are all to blame in different ways and to different levels (it is mostly on the club for me for what it’s worth). I’m also aware that this is the Xavi thread so I’ll leave it there and maybe pick this up with you another time, in a more suitable thread - so please don’t think I’m ignoring your well made points. All completely valid.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I do understand what you're saying. However, for me Ange was just full of these narratives that you talk about and they never yielded anything. They sound good when you're in a presser and it's an audience with Ange the story teller. However, on a Tuesday morning at training where are they then? Where is the top to bottom football strategy transcending through every age group in the club? Where is the ability to interchange players seamlessly and they all get your football philosophy? For me, Ange just couldn't admit that his "Ange ball" or various adaptations of it wasn't working in the PL. He was like an oil tanker turning when it came to switching tactics. That is compensating for the injuries / fatigue periods. He never adapted in the final third of last season. I still saw 3 centre mids charging around on the high press and getting picked off. I saw the inverted full-backs getting done on the outside? I saw the centre halves so obsessed holding his precious line in deep playing areas that the offside trap was broken time after time. All they wanted to do was what they had been taught all their careers and defend properly using their football intelligence, not obsess about a line on the 18 yard box.

Quite honestly, where exactly were these foundations after 2 years in charge?

We won the trophy because we quite rightly parked the bus and edged a game against another team that mostly parked the bus and played on the counter. I'll take any trophy to be fair but will never delude myself that if Ange had a 3rd pre-season we would have made progress. He just wasn't competent enough as a coach. He was a short term motivator in the latter stages of the cup when we needed that though. I'll always give him that and the fact he kept us scoring at the same rate after Harry left. The guy was an absolute joke with the defensive side though.

That’s your opinion on Ange and we can agree to disagree. The fact that he never lost the players, and the fact that we saw the outpouring of love for him that we did when he was sacked shows me there was something more there.

The narratives were part of his leadership. And gave the players something to believe in. It gave them a reason to stick together. You don’t believe last season was a thing, and I respect your view. But to me, nothing else actually explains ending up with Derby 08 levels of form for the last 5 months. Signing younger players or making a bad managerial appointment should not get Tottenham Hotspur relegated. Only an incredible misreading of the cultural dynamics of the squad could lead us to this point.

Seriously, which other club has ever gone through what we went through last season, only to end it with a trophy, in our position in the hierarchy of the game, with our recent lack of winning things? Which other club has seen the players pour out their love for a sacked manager like that? And which other club has ever sacked a manager in those circumstances? Getting Tottenham Hotspur relegated would be incredible, and it takes making incredible, unprecedented decisions to create the situation where it’s possible.

(FWIW I don’t think we played anything like the Ange ball we saw in the first few months in his last half season. So I don’t recall all the instances of inverted full backs getting done etc. but it’s not the main point for me in any case. A season 3, with the players coming back as winners, and I don’t think we’re in danger of getting relegated. I’ll accept we might not have been back in the CL spots and maybe the league changes in a way Ange would have adapted well enough to, and maybe he would eventually have to go. But we’d flat track enough teams to be safe).

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

All well written and all fair enough and it’s fine that this is your view. I don’t agree with the idea of the ‘thing’ as you describe it, I believe there was ‘a thing’ but to me it’s not the one you mention.

However, and I hope you don’t mind, I’m not going to go down the Ange vs Frank vs club route again, I think they are all to blame in different ways and to different levels (it is mostly on the club for me for what it’s worth). I’m also aware that this is the Xavi thread so I’ll leave it there and maybe pick this up with you another time, in a more suitable thread - so please don’t think I’m ignoring your well made points. All completely valid.

Ok, and I appreciate you don’t want to derail this thread so maybe I’ll DM you…I am genuinely curious, if you don’t think the ‘thing’ was my thing, what is the thing you think it was? Always interested in different perspectives.

 

[thfcsteff]

Personally I don't see Xavi making it as a playmaker in the PL, at least he's not ready to play that sort of role yet, which isn't a manager issue it's player/time issue - i think he'll end up similar to Son, coming in from out wide finding space for the shot or playing one-twos around the edge of box to break in on goal/find a final pass. In that sense Benrahma best matches Xavi and done very well at Brentford eg a ball carrying wide player/attacking mid who creates in the final third and shoots from distance by cutting/drifting inside.

Edit : only a short spell but Eriksen was at Brentford and had a big impact there, they tried to sign him permanently but United came in. - to offer an example of a creative no.10.


So yeah, definitely agree to disagree.

I agree he is not quite there yet, but I think he could absolutely be there sooner than later. Eriksen is an interesting example given his career path positionally, and yes, agreed, he was great.I will say that perhaps my current desperation to see any good player with vision and skill is a dominant factor in how I see him currently, but I think he is also a plant that when watered properly shoots skywards fast, and I don't believe he has received that trust. Again I suppose it is chicken and egg - is trust given or earned. I see the arguments for both.