*Official Match Thread* Tottenham Hotspur vs Norwich

[Spursalot]

I didnt watch the game today, we were celebrating my daughters birthday.

The best I could do was a combination of this thread and the awful Matt Le Tissier (who hates us) on SSN.

My hope is that its the case of getting his squad and team together - right now he is probably still testing and assessing things. It is only a hope though, if he persists it will become a concern.

Leadership issues? King and VDV were big personalities on the field for us, and with some new guys perhaps it is a problem. Hopefully not a lasting one but time will tell.

Leadership issues are possible, it didn't look like anyone wanted to take the game and control it. Dembele seemed to want to do it a bit when he came on, which was nice to see.

 

[Spursalot]

One means to compensate for a perceived lack of accurate passing might be to improve passing options.

If players move better then simple passes will find them, it need not be a technique based solution.

Incidentally, the midfield is only one part of the issue as I see it - not the whole problem.

We had a decent amount of possession for what everyone here is saying, just did not do so much with it.

 

[marcospur2]

We had a decent amount of possession for what everyone here is saying, just did not do so much with it.

Funny the stat you posted (I think it was you) showed we did actually have a decent amount as you say. But the perception from watching the game seemed very different. The relationship between the players in each area of the pitch is not yet functioning particularly well and perhaps why this perception exists?

 

[thfcsteff]

We need to be able to retain the ball to maintain a suitably high line and to do that we have to be able to pass accurately. Without Modrić, we haven't been able to do that so well so far. I think AVB is going to have to alter his vision, with our having failed to acquire Moutinho. It'll be interesting to see how well he is able to adapt the side.

Agreed! Good post IMHO...

 

[Spursalot]

Funny the stat you posted (I think it was you) showed we did actually have a decent amount as you say. But the perception from watching the game seemed very different. The relationship between the players in each area of the pitch is not yet functioning particularly well and perhaps why this perception exists?

It was me.


I think the primary issue was that when the CB's had the ball, nobody in the middle made themselves available so the play did not move forward.


Defence => Midfield needs some work, but Livermore out for Dembele could make a difference.

 

[Modric THFC]

Funny the stat you posted (I think it was you) showed we did actually have a decent amount as you say. But the perception from watching the game seemed very different. The relationship between the players in each area of the pitch is not yet functioning particularly well and perhaps why this perception exists?

It was Gallas, Vertonghen and BAE who had all our possession.

 

[joey55]

I understand where you are coming from and how you look and think about tactics. I think mutch of what you say is right, but to me it felt like we needed to take another step. Then it may well be that AVB is too big a step, maybe we should not hire someone who fundamentally believe in a totally different way to play. But as you mention hopefully AVB is so good that he can take the best from both styles and make something good out of it in the end.

I think it's fun to debatera with someone on this forum that does not directly go bananas just because you do not really see things the same way.

I disagree with the next tactical step theory, as I can't see examples of it. At the end of the day we finished 1 point behind Arsenal. Their manager went through an entire season unbeaten in 2003/4. Yet on Arsenal Mania all I read is about how tactically poor he is. I honestly believe and I know this sound hugely condescending, but fans in general are totally deluded where tactics are concerned. The trouble is there is simply no way to judge them as we aren't privy to what the instructions were. We simply guess based on what we've seen in games, but as I've said before, what fans say post match is rarely an accurate assessment of what really happened in the game. I don't believe highly complicated and subtle tactics are usually at play. I think it's a simple game and the key tactical instructions are usually straight forward and clear to see. Long ball is a "real" tactic, but half the pretentious and often contradictory stuff we read about in message board analysis is pure fantasy. Often things that are just part of the organic process of every football game is seen as a tactical thing, when it isn't.

 

[mudshark]

We need to be able to retain the ball to maintain a suitably high line and to do that we have to be able to pass accurately. Without Modrić, we haven't been able to do that so well so far. I think AVB is going to have to alter his vision, with our having failed to acquire Moutinho. It'll be interesting to see how well he is able to adapt the side.

One means to compensate for a perceived lack of accurate passing might be to improve passing options.

If players move better then simple passes will find them, it need not be a technique based solution.

Incidentally, the midfield is only one part of the issue as I see it - not the whole problem.

Sure, that's sort of what I mean about seeing whether AVB can adapt, although I do think a technique-based solution would be preferable, because then the question of the final ball is likelier to take care of itself. I didn't mean to imply that the midfield was the whole issue, either, but I do think it represents by far the most significant portion, as evidenced by the number of mentions it got in your post.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think we have pretty similar thoughts on how the change would benefit the team, but I also think that joey55 is right when he says that you should try to exploit the extraordinary abilities that some players possess.

Thats a Chicken and egg thing for me. You should suit your play to your players, but also tailor your players to a greater design...

 

[sefnot]

Yes. He does have a place in our squad. Did you complain last season, or are you complaining because suddenly, as opposed to being a Dm in a side which had Modric and VdV, he is now a DM in a side which currently lacks a player of that nature? Note: he is not Luka or VdV. Do not look to him for creativity. Ask the likes of Sigurdsson to show up and take the ball 5 yards away when he has it and don't force him to be what he isn't. My comment about him being an international was in response to your comment about him 'not having any youth caps', so that one's on you!

If you bothered to read what I wrote, you'll have seen what I thought today. I'm not going to defend his cheap free-kick (he was being obstructed but needs to be smarter there) but your fixation on him as the reason we drew again will only leave you missing greater issues at hand IMHO. So, errr, please stop! There are other issues, such as the selection to start with...

the selections are of course the problem...and Livvermore should not have been picked (which i assume u agree with) and he shouldnt be in our squad. if yu think he is GHod enough you havev no clue as to the quality our competitors possess.
you totally ignore that evven their so called defensive CM's, which is where i assume this guy fits have infiunitely more technical quality than livermore. this kid and his presence in a team and squad playing in aleague avove his levvel is a disgrace. yes there are many issues but you have to break it doen to personnel and the quality available....the fact he has an international cap now for england in aleaue dominated by foreign talent is irrelevvant and a silly comment which clouds the issue.

 

[thfcsteff]

the selections are of course the problem...and Livvermore should not have been picked (which i assume u agree with) and he shouldnt be in our squad. if yu think he is GHod enough you havev no clue as to the quality our competitors possess.
you totally ignore that evven their so called defensive CM's, which is where i assume this guy fits have infiunitely more technical quality than livermore. this kid and his presence in a team and squad playing in aleague avove his levvel is a disgrace. yes there are many issues but you have to break it doen to personnel and the quality available....the fact he has an international cap now for england in aleaue dominated by foreign talent is irrelevvant and a silly comment which clouds the issue.

I agree he should not have started today and should not start now we have Dembele and Sandro. Alongside Dembele if Sandro's hurt? Fine.
As for your second point high lit above, let's just agree that I have no clue then mate. Like Redknapp didn't, like AVB doesn't and like Hodgson doesn't. Clueless the lot of us. Guilty as charged.
Your third point? Again, and to make this very clear, you are correct, it is a silly comment. Irrelevant? No. YOU started that particular line of silliness by calling out his lack of England youth caps. Accept your part in what I agree is tedious sub-thread within our exchanges.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I disagree with the next tactical step theory, as I can't see examples of it. At the end of the day we finished 1 point behind Arsenal. Their manager went through an entire season unbeaten in 2003/4. Yet on Arsenal Mania all I read is about how tactically poor he is. I honestly believe and I know this sound hugely condescending, but fans in general are totally deluded where tactics are concerned. The trouble is there is simply no way to judge them as we aren't privy to what the instructions were. We simply guess based on what we've seen in games, but as I've said before, what fans say post match is rarely an accurate assessment of what really happened in the game. I don't believe highly complicated and subtle tactics are usually at play. I think it's a simple game and the key tactical instructions are usually straight forward and clear to see. Long ball is a "real" tactic, but half the pretentious and often contradictory stuff we read about in message board analysis is pure fantasy. Often things that are just part of the organic process of every football game is seen as a tactical thing, when it isn't.

You are on a real roll today mate. This must be the third or fourth great post you have made. Very sensible comments AGAIN!

 

[stelan]

I disagree with the next tactical step theory, as I can't see examples of it. At the end of the day we finished 1 point behind Arsenal. Their manager went through an entire season unbeaten in 2003/4. Yet on Arsenal Mania all I read is about how tactically poor he is. I honestly believe and I know this sound hugely condescending, but fans in general are totally deluded where tactics are concerned. The trouble is there is simply no way to judge them as we aren't privy to what the instructions were. We simply guess based on what we've seen in games, but as I've said before, what fans say post match is rarely an accurate assessment of what really happened in the game. I don't believe highly complicated and subtle tactics are usually at play. I think it's a simple game and the key tactical instructions are usually straight forward and clear to see. Long ball is a "real" tactic, but half the pretentious and often contradictory stuff we read about in message board analysis is pure fantasy. Often things that are just part of the organic process of every football game is seen as a tactical thing, when it isn't.

I think you make it a little too easy, nothing in life is totally black or white. I think it's important to have a basic tactics that you then can customize a bit depending on the opponent. To just go out and run with that we have better players, is makeing it too easy. So I agree with you that many see tactics as to important, but it is a big part of all team sports, if you want to or not. I think you should always take out the team that has the best chance to win the match, which is not necessarily the most skilled player for each position.

(I have been a coach in team sports at the highest level, so dare to say I know a little, anyway.)

(Before everyone asks, NOT football

 

[Jurgen the German]

No he's not a good player. In fact he's the most overrated spurs player in GG history (posters continuously go back to the 09/10 season when talking about him. He's slow beyond belief and i'm tinkled off i still see him playing for us.

AVB is bottoling it big time with his ridiculous team selection and substitutions. So this is the tactical genius that we were going to get excited about? the guy so far simply goes 4-4-2 when things are not going well (the exact same thing our previous manager was ridiculued for). He has no alternative plan (so far) he just panics and goes 4-4-2.

So true.

 

[P.D.]

Echo the majority opinion in here, very poor performance today.

How Livermore stayed on and not Sandro I'll never know, people literally gasped all around me when the board came up for that one. He isnt the best player anyway but had an abolsute shocker today, couldnt string a pass together at all.

This is the first game I've seen (live or TV) this season due to holidays but the main thing to me was the massive ocean sized hole in midfield. Sandro and Livermore both seemed so deep and also quite wide at time and then there was nothing else up till Defoe as Sig seemed to wander wide as well. Why isn't Sig coming deep to take it or at least moving into space so someone can find him. Seemed to me that rather than drifting into space he would always wander into the congested areas and seemed unwilling to get on the ball. Has this been the same in the other games? I know we don't have Modric but we still have decent players in there who should be getting into position and wanting the ball. It did improve when Dembele came on and he needs to start next game.

Defoe was as poor as ever, I know hold up play isn't his forte but he never even looked too pass even when in very good positions to do so.

Other thing I picked up was the lack of people in the box/getting into the box. One moment in the first half Lennon did his man on the right and floated it in, only player in the box was Defoe, similar throughout the whole game. Yet when Norwich got forward they often had 2/3/4 players in the box looking to get onto the cross.

Positive was Dembele, looked good and drove the play forward. Brought some urgency into the playl. Pleased with Verts too, looked strong and composed, like the way he looks to bring it out of defence and then carry on the run after he passed it. Friedel also made some good saves.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

I disagree with the next tactical step theory, as I can't see examples of it. At the end of the day we finished 1 point behind Arsenal. Their manager went through an entire season unbeaten in 2003/4. Yet on Arsenal Mania all I read is about how tactically poor he is. I honestly believe and I know this sound hugely condescending, but fans in general are totally deluded where tactics are concerned. The trouble is there is simply no way to judge them as we aren't privy to what the instructions were. We simply guess based on what we've seen in games, but as I've said before, what fans say post match is rarely an accurate assessment of what really happened in the game. I don't believe highly complicated and subtle tactics are usually at play. I think it's a simple game and the key tactical instructions are usually straight forward and clear to see. Long ball is a "real" tactic, but half the pretentious and often contradictory stuff we read about in message board analysis is pure fantasy. Often things that are just part of the organic process of every football game is seen as a tactical thing, when it isn't.

Spot on! I think a lot of the FM tacticians on this forum would be quite shocked if they were a fly on the wall in training or tactical team talks. Most stuff given to players is very basic and the players do the rest.

 

[Oranje Spur]

One means to compensate for a perceived lack of accurate passing might be to improve passing options.

If players move better then simple passes will find them, it need not be a technique based solution.

Incidentally, the midfield is only one part of the issue as I see it - not the whole problem.

The lack of movement was sad today. There was more standing around in the center than there was movement out wide or in open spaces. This is the second game where we're waiting for the play instead of helping pocess the play. Very sad. The starting line up was a bit odd too. 2 DM against a team that was smashed away at Fulham along with Ade on the bench.

AVB has his system but I kept looking at what we have and think two things 4-4-2 or 4-1-3-2 the 3-3 thing up top is either confusing our wingers or allowing far too much freedom for them to drift. Other players are not filling in the width to provide options resulting in too much long bypassing the mid all together balls.

I'll be thrilled if we finish 7th.

This opening says to me to that all the Cup competitions have to be secondary to the remaining 35 league games. 3rd or 4th will mean more to THFC over the next 5 years than any of those cups.

 

[thfcsteff]

Echo the majority opinion in here, very poor performance today.

How Livermore stayed on and not Sandro I'll never know, people literally gasped all around me when the board came up for that one. He isnt the best player anyway but had an abolsute shocker today, couldnt string a pass together at all.

This is the first game I've seen (live or TV) this season due to holidays but the main thing to me was the massive ocean sized hole in midfield. Sandro and Livermore both seemed so deep and also quite wide at time and then there was nothing else up till Defoe as Sig seemed to wander wide as well. Why isn't Sig coming deep to take it or at least moving into space so someone can find him. Seemed to me that rather than drifting into space he would always wander into the congested areas and seemed unwilling to get on the ball. Has this been the same in the other games? I know we don't have Modric but we still have decent players in there who should be getting into position and wanting the ball. It did improve when Dembele came on and he needs to start next game.

Defoe was as poor as ever, I know hold up play isn't his forte but he never even looked too pass even when in very good positions to do so.

Other thing I picked up was the lack of people in the box/getting into the box. One moment in the first half Lennon did his man on the right and floated it in, only player in the box was Defoe, similar throughout the whole game. Yet when Norwich got forward they often had 2/3/4 players in the box looking to get onto the cross.

Positive was Dembele, looked good and drove the play forward. Brought some urgency into the playl. Pleased with Verts too, looked strong and composed, like the way he looks to bring it out of defence and then carry on the run after he passed it. Friedel also made some good saves.

Excellent summation. For me, there's a lot riding on Sigurdsson getting it right. I agree, today he really needed to show for the ball and prompt the play in the hole, but he was MIA for a lot of the match. Sandro and Dembele would've been great IMHO.

 

[billyiddo]

there was just absolutely nothing on display today, terrible performance

 

[ringo]

We were a right mess today. Some serious problems that need fixing in all areas of the pitch. it may only be three games in, but I don't think there is any way AVB will make 4-2-3-1 work with the players we have. At Porto, AVB was lucky enough to have some of the best attacking players in the world and a world class midfielder to pull the strings. He doesn't have that now and if he doesn't see that and persists with the same system he will be gone sooner rather than later.

imagine if we had been playing one of the top teams today.