tommysvr
Pat van den Hauwe
You're taking the literal position we finished in and nothing more though. No further context to why we've struggled over the last 2 seasons.
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Thomas Frank - Head Coach
- Thread starter LutonSpurs
- Start date
You're taking the literal position we finished in and nothing more though. No further context to why we've struggled over the last 2 seasons.
Context is important - the reason for me referencing last season is to add some to what we are seeing this season?
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tommysvr
Pat van den Hauwe
But I don't think people are ignoring that context. More, that context is exactly why they're so frustrated with this season and Frank. We sacked a cup winner and we ended up no better off / possibly worse.
Jurgen the German
Terry Dyson
We can all see how superior the PL has become over the other European leagues by the performances of all the teams in the CL and Europa this season and last season. All 6 teams qualified for the CL knockout and 4 finished in the top 8. We won the EL whilst finishing 17th. United wiped the floor with Bilbao last season who finished in the top 4 in Spain. Europe is the only arena where we look comfortable and like a competent outfit.
The reason this discussion kicked off is because I tried to add some context to the 'worst top 6 manager' table that Raz posted - highlighting that Frank didn't take over a top 6 team.
Pointing out that simple fact seems to have rattled some cages.
tommysvr
Pat van den Hauwe
Yes, we by the literal definition of last seasons table, we were not a top 6 side when Frank was appointed. You are correct.
Bishop
Jimmy McCormick
The reason Ange got sacked and likely Frank too is because we think that this isn't our level and we aren't willing to accept it as our truth.
I'm very much a believer in the table. You finish where you deserve, whatever your circumstances your points total tells your truth. Now obviously that truth can change from season to season but it's on us to change that next season. It's not some automatic right.
tommysvr
Pat van den Hauwe
I fear replying to you because I don't want to kick off a big discussion when ultimately we'll disagree, but there's no way the table reflects the quality in our squad.
Not saying we should be top 4, 6 or even 8...but not in the bottom half.
Jurgen the German
Terry Dyson
Personally I feel there is very little difference between teams that finish around 8th-13th/14th so in theory we could finish 8th or 9th and it wouldn’t be a false position. But I wouldn’t say we’re definitely not bottom half quality.
tommysvr
Pat van den Hauwe
I agree. The difference is likely in the manager, injuries and other variables.
MartyFunkhouser
Steve Sedgley
I think with the injuries and the Bedlam they have caused (in fairness to Ange too) it absolutely does.
MartyFunkhouser
Steve Sedgley
Dare I say it, I agree but the manager will be judged on results too rightly so.
I feel like anything said on here needs caveating because it get twisted and conflated into other arguments but I think we have been largely decent in the last week or so and haven't got anything near what we deserve, I thought for large parts yesterday we were the better side, esp with 11 men.
*For anyone wishing to claim its delusion, I am not saying its enough got the season, just how I have seen the last week.
Lemonade Money
Colin Calderwood
I would consider only the last five matches have seen performances with hope of Frank turning things around, and football that's not awful. The results from those are W2 D2 L1. Let's see if that continues before losing our brick. And we've always got 'Arry in reserve.
thfcsteff
Ralph Coates
...yet did anyone consider the potential bounce
of that group coming through some awful times to win the Europa League (that parade feel-good vibe too) or are we so far down the data and stat-driven path that the glorious intangibles which make football (and hopefully, life) worth living are now disregarded and trivialised as 'hocus-pocus lemon aura weirdoism'...how sad that romance and hope when there is a genuine silver reason to have some gets so easily disregarded.
Jurgen the German
Terry Dyson
But it’s a results business and the results are eerily similar to last season. Certainly can’t say the results are an improvement.
Mate with all due respect i think there's more than a little bit of wishful thinking there.
Besides, I'm not really trying to pour over last season here - I'm just trying reframe/ readjust the situation that Frank walked in to.
thfcsteff
Ralph Coates
I don't entirely disagree but it is a valid discussion point was all I was saying.
Anyway, indeed...I think what has done Frank the hardest is actually not the squad/side, but the churn above him. It is a huge issue. Between Levy and Paratici gone (plus the sheer amount of levers Levy controlled) ENIC went too early and too fast IMO, and Frank is paying the price IMV. I feel for the guy.
thfcsteff
Ralph Coates
No, but I think once again we have a manager being undermined by a pretty poor upper management. Nothing we have 't seen before sadly...
You are counting CL matches, the actual performance in the league is 2 wins in last 16 matches.
The issue for Frank, and I totally agree with @thfcsteff he has not been helped by the club (for me January window was criminal negligence/incompetence), is it's too late for just visual improvements. IF we saw what we saw in the last few games in November, maybe that would be some cause for optimism, but he's 37 games in and we can't buy a fudging win in the league.
Can you imagine the stadium if we lose against Saudi Sportswashing Machine then are 2 or 3 nil down at half time to the Scum?