• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Frank Give him time or get rid?

Thomas Frank give him time or get rid?

  • Give him until the summer

  • Give him until Christmas

  • Get rid now


Results are only viewable after voting.
https://theanalyst.com/articles/tottenham-thomas-frank-stats-premier-league-expected-points

Tottenham’s Champions League Position Cannot Save Doomed Thomas Frank​


Tottenham’s underlying numbers are as bad as their Premier League position suggests. There is little reason to believe Thomas Frank can turn this around and save Spurs’ season.

Small section .. full article at link above

Spurs have won the ‘xG battle’ (generated more expected goals than their opponents) in just eight of their 22 Premier League games this season. Only Burnley, Fulham and West Ham have won on xG fewer times than them.

What’s more, of Tottenham’s eight xG victories, four have come at home when they have gone behind and been chasing the game, and their opponents have dropped back to defend their lead – against Liverpool, Fulham, Aston Villa and Manchester United. Spurs lost the first three matches in that list and drew with United.

These numbers do highlight one limitation of xG. Spurs might have won on xG against Liverpool and Fulham, for example, but on both occasions that was largely the result of them going 2-0 down and fighting their way back into the game late on against a team who were happy to sit on their lead. Expected goals doesn’t take into account game state.

Opta’s expected points model runs into similar problems, but it is useful nonetheless in trying to work out where teams ‘deserve’ to be in the league. The model simulates the number of goals scored by each side in a match based on the xG value of every shot taken, and then simulates every match 10,000 times and assigns points to either team from the proportion of those sims they won, drew and lost. The idea is that over a period of time, xG data can tell us how well or badly a team is creating chances, thus giving a better indication than the actual table of how everyone is really playing.

Throughout Frank’s reign, Spurs have persistently overachieved compared to their underlying numbers. After nine games of the season, for example, Spurs were third in the Premier League, but the xPts table had them down in 13th. In other words, their performances were worthy of enough points to be 13th in the league. No team had a bigger difference between their actual and ‘expected’ positions. This graphic shows that, rather than the 17 points they actually had, their underlying numbers suggested they deserved 11.2 xPts.

Knowing what we know now, these were warning signs from back in October that things were going to head south. And so it proved, as Spurs now find themselves 14th in the Premier League (while they are still 13th in the xPts table). They have sunk to a position their underlying numbers suggested was on the cards months ago. The table right now is a far better reflection of Spurs’ displays.
 
https://theanalyst.com/articles/tottenham-thomas-frank-stats-premier-league-expected-points

Tottenham’s Champions League Position Cannot Save Doomed Thomas Frank​


Tottenham’s underlying numbers are as bad as their Premier League position suggests. There is little reason to believe Thomas Frank can turn this around and save Spurs’ season.

Small section .. full article at link above

Spurs have won the ‘xG battle’ (generated more expected goals than their opponents) in just eight of their 22 Premier League games this season. Only Burnley, Fulham and West Ham have won on xG fewer times than them.

What’s more, of Tottenham’s eight xG victories, four have come at home when they have gone behind and been chasing the game, and their opponents have dropped back to defend their lead – against Liverpool, Fulham, Aston Villa and Manchester United. Spurs lost the first three matches in that list and drew with United.

These numbers do highlight one limitation of xG. Spurs might have won on xG against Liverpool and Fulham, for example, but on both occasions that was largely the result of them going 2-0 down and fighting their way back into the game late on against a team who were happy to sit on their lead. Expected goals doesn’t take into account game state.

Opta’s expected points model runs into similar problems, but it is useful nonetheless in trying to work out where teams ‘deserve’ to be in the league. The model simulates the number of goals scored by each side in a match based on the xG value of every shot taken, and then simulates every match 10,000 times and assigns points to either team from the proportion of those sims they won, drew and lost. The idea is that over a period of time, xG data can tell us how well or badly a team is creating chances, thus giving a better indication than the actual table of how everyone is really playing.

Throughout Frank’s reign, Spurs have persistently overachieved compared to their underlying numbers. After nine games of the season, for example, Spurs were third in the Premier League, but the xPts table had them down in 13th. In other words, their performances were worthy of enough points to be 13th in the league. No team had a bigger difference between their actual and ‘expected’ positions. This graphic shows that, rather than the 17 points they actually had, their underlying numbers suggested they deserved 11.2 xPts.

Knowing what we know now, these were warning signs from back in October that things were going to head south. And so it proved, as Spurs now find themselves 14th in the Premier League (while they are still 13th in the xPts table). They have sunk to a position their underlying numbers suggested was on the cards months ago. The table right now is a far better reflection of Spurs’ displays.

Where I would defend Frank on this is a point that it makes in this article. XG doesn’t take into account game state and Frank’s approach is all about taking it into account.
 
I have said it before and i will say it again. Xg has so many fans thinking it is the bible and explains everything. It does not and their are so many fans who believe it is the BIBLE, when in reality it just another stat which in most cases is misused far too much.

Having worked in football coaching most of my life it really gets blown out of importance. It is a usful tool but it is followed by so many fans as being far more important then it is. Each to their own i guess.
 
I have said it before and i will say it again. Xg has so many fans thinking it is the bible and explains everything. It does not and their are so many fans who believe it is the BIBLE, when in reality it just another stat which in most cases is misused far too much.

Having worked in football coaching most of my life it really gets blown out of importance. It is a usful tool but it is followed by so many fans as being far more important then it is. Each to their own i guess.

Amen.
 
I have said it before and i will say it again. Xg has so many fans thinking it is the bible and explains everything. It does not and their are so many fans who believe it is the BIBLE, when in reality it just another stat which in most cases is misused far too much.

Having worked in football coaching most of my life it really gets blown out of importance. It is a usful tool but it is followed by so many fans as being far more important then it is. Each to their own i guess.

I'd go further and say it's complete flimflam. Most sports are about flow and momentum, which is something you can't quantify. Xg is just an attempt to bring more stats into spectating to try and Americanise it. Possession is probably the most useful stat in football, but even that doesn't tell much story (counter-attacking teams don't desire it). So no - just use empirical data as fans and ignore the nonsense.
 
I'd go further and say it's complete flimflam. Most sports are about flow and momentum, which is something you can't quantify. Xg is just an attempt to bring more stats into spectating to try and Americanise it. Possession is probably the most useful stat in football, but even that doesn't tell much story (counter-attacking teams don't desire it). So no - just use empirical data as fans and ignore the nonsense.

I wouldn't, like all data, used in isolation and in too small a sample size, it can be flimflam.

But when you combine it with other things across enough games to show a trend, and most importantly with eye test as well, it can show/confirm things.

Our xG,+dependance on set pieces, +lack of possession overall, +lack of through balls, +fact that 3 of our top scorers in the team are defenders, + position on table, +eye test = a very clear statement on a side struglling to produce consistent attacking patterns and intent.

In the article above it acknowledges some of the challenges but it also shows our league position from earlier in season corrected to mean as the data indicated it would.
 
One thing I’ve never understood about xG is does it take into account who is shooting? The xG for a chance surely depends on what player is shooting and from where. A shot from outside the area is given a standardised numerical value but a shot from Kane would have more chance of going in than Gregor Raziak having a pop
 
Emery screams at Tielemans, with a small grapple as he leaves the pitch

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.
 
I wouldn't, like all data, used in isolation and in too small a sample size, it can be flimflam.

But when you combine it with other things across enough games to show a trend, and most importantly with eye test as well, it can show/confirm things.

Our xG,+dependance on set pieces, +lack of possession overall, +lack of through balls, +fact that 3 of our top scorers in the team are defenders, + position on table, +eye test = a very clear statement on a side struglling to produce consistent attacking patterns and intent.

In the article above it acknowledges some of the challenges but it also shows our league position from earlier in season corrected to mean as the data indicated it would.

The problem I have with all these new stats is that they're not balanced versus the optics of knowing football and watching the game. Basicaly, what @parklane1 said above. First of all, football is about not conceding goals and scoring more than the opposition. I never hear our fans talking about xGA which is equally important as xG. If you're against Frank then you're just going to build the narrative using xG. What you're not going to do is look at the xG trend under Frank and ask whether it is heading in a positive direction. I haven't looked but I have a feeling it is. However, the flailing gauge that we should all be talking about at the moment is the trend in the xGA. I'm pretty certain if you look at that trend then we're likely to concede more goals now that in our first 10 games.

I'm not a fan of xG/xGA. I'd rather look at the goals for and against as that is fact. I like number of clean sheets as well as I've noticed over the years that teams that win things have the highest number of clean sheets.
 
The problem I have with all these new stats is that they're not balanced versus the optics of knowing football and watching the game. Basicaly, what @parklane1 said above. First of all, football is about not conceding goals and scoring more than the opposition. I never hear our fans talking about xGA which is equally important as xG. If you're against Frank then you're just going to build the narrative using xG. What you're not going to do is look at the xG trend under Frank and ask whether it is heading in a positive direction. I haven't looked but I have a feeling it is. However, the flailing gauge that we should all be talking about at the moment is the trend in the xGA. I'm pretty certain if you look at that trend then we're likely to concede more goals now that in our first 10 games.

I'm not a fan of xG/xGA. I'd rather look at the goals for and against as that is fact. I like number of clean sheets as well as I've noticed over the years that teams that win things have the highest number of clean sheets.
We have a higher xGA (29.5) than xG (25.2). Our xGA is close to the number of goals conceded. So looking at goals against 29 goals against over 22 games would be 50 goals against extrapolated over a season.
 
We have a higher xGA (29.5) than xG (25.2). Our xGA is close to the number of goals conceded. So looking at goals against 29 goals against over 22 games would be 50 goals against extrapolated over a season.

You may have missed my point. If you take the goals conceded in the first 10 games and then look at the second 10 games it's gone up considerably. So you did a linear extrapolation and come up with 50 goals. I've done the same thing myself earlier in the season and come up with 45 goals which would be amazing after conceding 65 last season. Whose to say that when we check at the end of Feb, it doesn't extrapolate to over 60 goals again? It's about the trend and whether we've got that mission critical gauge under control. I'm not sure we have yet but I do trust Frank more than I did Ange to fix it in the right balance with the goals for.

4 years of conceding over 60 league goals means we deserve what we get. All I ever see is fans talking about goals for or xG. Go figure.
 
You may have missed my point. If you take the goals conceded in the first 10 games and then look at the second 10 games it's gone up considerably. So you did a linear extrapolation and come up with 50 goals. I've done the same thing myself earlier in the season and come up with 45 goals which would be amazing after conceding 65 last season. Whose to say that when we check at the end of Feb, it doesn't extrapolate to over 60 goals again? It's about the trend and whether we've got that mission critical gauge under control. I'm not sure we have yet but I do trust Frank more than I did Ange to fix it in the right balance with the goals for.

4 years of conceding over 60 league goals means we deserve what we get. All I ever see is fans talking about goals for or xG. Go figure.
I'm not sure on that trend. Not sure if there are any useful online stats like that available. Nathan over at the extra inch pod occasionally posts cumulative xG and xGA graphs on twitter/X that I think shows a bit of what you're asking for. Not sure when he last posted one of those though.

I think it's useful to look at both, not just one.

Going to 45/50 from 65 is obviously good in isolation, but depending on goals scored too.

Last season goals and goals against were close enough to xG and xGA for it not to matter much which we look at I think. We scored a similar amount to what we conceded. Similar again this season, two goals more than we've conceded, xG painting a slightly worse picture.

Going from 65 goals conceded to 45/50 isn't to be amazing if at the same time we go from 65 goals scored to 45/50. That doesn't seem like progress to me.
 
I'm not sure on that trend. Not sure if there are any useful online stats like that available. Nathan over at the extra inch pod occasionally posts cumulative xG and xGA graphs on twitter/X that I think shows a bit of what you're asking for. Not sure when he last posted one of those though.

I think it's useful to look at both, not just one.

Going to 45/50 from 65 is obviously good in isolation, but depending on goals scored too.

Last season goals and goals against were close enough to xG and xGA for it not to matter much which we look at I think. We scored a similar amount to what we conceded. Similar again this season, two goals more than we've conceded, xG painting a slightly worse picture.

Going from 65 goals conceded to 45/50 isn't to be amazing if at the same time we go from 65 goals scored to 45/50. That doesn't seem like progress to me.
Bet you're fun at parties.
 
I'm not sure on that trend. Not sure if there are any useful online stats like that available. Nathan over at the extra inch pod occasionally posts cumulative xG and xGA graphs on twitter/X that I think shows a bit of what you're asking for. Not sure when he last posted one of those though.

I think it's useful to look at both, not just one.

Going to 45/50 from 65 is obviously good in isolation, but depending on goals scored too.

Last season goals and goals against were close enough to xG and xGA for it not to matter much which we look at I think. We scored a similar amount to what we conceded. Similar again this season, two goals more than we've conceded, xG painting a slightly worse picture.

Going from 65 goals conceded to 45/50 isn't to be amazing if at the same time we go from 65 goals scored to 45/50. That doesn't seem like progress to me.

And to me it is progress, because when you sort the defence that is when magic happens in attack. Take Poch for example:

14/15 For 58 Against 53 (5th)
15/16 For 69 Against 39 (3rd)
16/17 For 86 Against 26 (2nd)

In this example the "goals against" halves and the "goals for" grows by 50%.

In our current case we sit on 33 for and 31 against after 22 games.

I don't think we have the answers at this stage, but it is an interesting reference point to come back to over the season.
 
And to me it is progress, because when you sort the defence that is when magic happens in attack. Take Poch for example:

14/15 For 58 Against 53 (5th)
15/16 For 69 Against 39 (3rd)
16/17 For 86 Against 26 (2nd)

In this example the "goals against" halves and the "goals for" grows by 50%.

In our current case we sit on 33 for and 31 against after 22 games.

I don't think we have the answers at this stage, but it is an interesting reference point to come back to over the season.

I see that differently and see the Pochettino example differently. I don't think sorting out the defence is when magic happens in attack. Both have to be worked on at the same time as part of a cohesive strategy imo.

Obviously improving our defending and getting fewer goals against was a vital part of our progress under Poch. But even in that first season we were also working on our attacking. Choosing better ball players over defensive solidity. I remember somewhat well the conversations around Mason and Bentaleb not being good enough defensively. But they played quite a lot and were rather good on the ball, they could progress the ball. That and being brave in possession was part of the plan that was implemented from the get go. Not as a second phase after shoring up the defence first by playing boring football.

I think the numbers indicate that too with the Poch example. Goals for and goals against improng at the same time. He didn't spend the first season sorting out our defending before then getting to the attacking and goalscoring. Season before Poch we scored 55 and conceded 51. Rather than getting the goals against down first he worked on a cohesive strategy that included both attacking and defending at the same time.

Think this comparison was made on the Athletic Spurs podcast. Comparing Frank to Hodgson at Liverpool. I've thought before Moyes at United. I think those are more relevant to the approach Frank has taken here (defending well first and foremost, then try to get the attacking working) than what Poch did here.
 
I see that differently and see the Pochettino example differently. I don't think sorting out the defence is when magic happens in attack. Both have to be worked on at the same time as part of a cohesive strategy imo.

Obviously improving our defending and getting fewer goals against was a vital part of our progress under Poch. But even in that first season we were also working on our attacking. Choosing better ball players over defensive solidity. I remember somewhat well the conversations around Mason and Bentaleb not being good enough defensively. But they played quite a lot and were rather good on the ball, they could progress the ball. That and being brave in possession was part of the plan that was implemented from the get go. Not as a second phase after shoring up the defence first by playing boring football.

I think the numbers indicate that too with the Poch example. Goals for and goals against improng at the same time. He didn't spend the first season sorting out our defending before then getting to the attacking and goalscoring. Season before Poch we scored 55 and conceded 51. Rather than getting the goals against down first he worked on a cohesive strategy that included both attacking and defending at the same time.

Think this comparison was made on the Athletic Spurs podcast. Comparing Frank to Hodgson at Liverpool. I've thought before Moyes at United. I think those are more relevant to the approach Frank has taken here (defending well first and foremost, then try to get the attacking working) than what Poch did here.

Agreed. Football is a team game and you can’t work on the defence. How you attack, how you think about possession and how you use your attackers off ball all have an impact on both goals scored and conceded. Ultimately if you’re winning with a well oiled machine you will be scoring more and conceding less.

I defend Frank from analysis that is too blunt on XG because his approach is all about adjusting to the game state. So simply put we’ll probably rack up higher XG numbers if we’re chasing a game, but it doesn’t mean it’s a desirable performance,

Where I question Frank is that he has also alluded to needing to fix the defence, as if it’s an isolated thing. I don’t think he really believes that, rather that he sees his version of football as being more effective and efficient ultimately at both ends.
 
Agreed. Football is a team game and you can’t work on the defence. How you attack, how you think about possession and how you use your attackers off ball all have an impact on both goals scored and conceded. Ultimately if you’re winning with a well oiled machine you will be scoring more and conceding less.

I defend Frank from analysis that is too blunt on XG because his approach is all about adjusting to the game state. So simply put we’ll probably rack up higher XG numbers if we’re chasing a game, but it doesn’t mean it’s a desirable performance,

Where I question Frank is that he has also alluded to needing to fix the defence, as if it’s an isolated thing. I don’t think he really believes that, rather that he sees his version of football as being more effective and efficient ultimately at both ends.
I agree that xG is pretty blunt and far from some kind of end alm discussions truth.

I doubt he believes that too. But his approach so far and how we approach game states at 0-0 paints a pretty clear picture of his biggest priorities so far at least.
 
I thought the first 25 minutes or so of our game against Dortmund on Tuesday were great. Just the sort of thing that we want to see from a Spurs team. The whole first half was great but obviously the last 20 odd minutes of that were against 10 men so a bit more difficult to judge.

I was a bit disappointed that we went a lot more passive in the second half, letting them push us back but I do appreciate we had a two goal lead and lots of injuries so need to manage the workload.

I'm hoping to see us give a similar performance to that first half against Burnley this weekend. If we do then I'll entertain the possibility that Frank has turned the corner in terms of the ambition level that he wants his team to show (trying to win a game instead of trying not to lose it).
 
Back