Lemonade Money
Andy Thompson
Their cup final, managed by payback Nuno? What a send off.
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Thomas Frank - Head Coach
- Thread starter LutonSpurs
- Start date
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Steve Carr
There’s no option now other than to go on an incredible run in the league, otherwise the entire season has been a waste. Here’s hoping it happens.
Needs at least 4 points from the next 2 league games and performances to go with that.
Don't need an incredible run, just progress.
No idea why it would, see VDV basically said post interview the players spoke up at HT .. read into that what you would
El Dante
Paul Walsh
We do need an incredible run, unless you think midtable is acceptable?
It's acceptable as an improvement on last season. It's acceptable if we see the team progressing from where it was at the end of last season (league wise) and start of this season. It's acceptable if we see a good standard of football. It's acceptable if we see a proper identity and style of play established. It's acceptable if we see patterns of playing being cemented in the team. It's acceptable if all indications are that next season will continue on an upward curve.
It's not acceptable if we continue with the directionless, boring football, and no indication that the future is any brighter.
Daisuk
Chris Jones
Where did he say that? This one? He doesn't exactly say that, but might be biting his tongue a bit.
DeanoAustin
Cecil Poynton
Absolutely this. If Frank improves us from 17th to mid table and puts foundations in place for what looks like further progress, that’s good enough for me in his first season. I’d give him another one on the strength of that.
Thing is, at the moment, I don’t see anything to hang my hat on and we’re 6 months in.
Silly McSilly Face
Kasey Keller
He's done. Its inevitable.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Steve Carr
I don’t agree. I feel like the promise of Frank’s hiring (and Ange’s sacking) wasn’t that we might see progesss in identity and patterns and improve the league position from 17th (which was almost certain to happen with any manager).
The promise of Frank’s hiring was to get the best out of the squad and compete on all fronts. We now have one realistic front left. And it’s going to take an incredible run, through a really tough February, to end up with European qualification again. In some ways the form has to turn at some point because we’re in such a dreadful run that maybe it’s a smart bet. But we are seeing so many examples of the players frustrated and losing their heads which suggests deeper issues.
I didn’t feel like Frank’s hiring meant we were going to need a whole season to establish foundations. I thought we were genuinely trying to still compete. But as it is, if we keep going beyond this season with Frank’s foundations, having just scraped the Conference League, we are making an enormous bet that he is the guy to double down upon, because we will have wasted a season to continue with this investment.
I also feel the bar is on the floor right now in terms of analysing our performances. We had more territory in the second half, and we did play some nice stuff. Damn right. I’d expect it and do expect it when we’re behind by two, and when we seem to deliberately fall back in other parts of the game. We should have the energy to be able to raise our intensity to do that. But did we really lay siege on their goal? Did we create a barrage of genuinely good chances? We didn’t. The players showed fight and I’m happy about that, but we’ve fallen such a long way if this is progress.
I really like Frank but I think something broke my trust in his project today. I did not expect this season to be effectively over in January. And I’m not even blaming him so much as the situation overall. But we need a great run, we need to be at least back in the Europa, otherwise we have wasted a year and I’m not sure how that can be argued. Taking a season to finally establish a pattern of play ain’t it for me.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I did actually wonder if someone like Palhinha, Gray or Tel (the strong characters) took the reins. A bit like Romero and vdV did in Frankfurt.
Sorry, but you need to get a grip on your expectations. Give me an example (outside Leicsters freak season) where a team went from finishing 17th to competing for trophies. Not a cup run with lucky draws, but an actual team that went from 17th to putting in consistent high quality performances that had them at the top end of the table and competing in cups. There's no team in history that has done that. certainly not in the modern game. Progress is all you can ask for from a manager. I'm not saying Frank is the manager that gets us that, but expectations have to be realistic.
Silly McSilly Face
Kasey Keller
Yep i said at start top 10 would be an incredible season following on from last season. To climb 7 places in the Premier League takes a huge effort and improvement.
DeanoAustin
Cecil Poynton
I don’t think the minimum expectation for the season could have been European football. We finished 17th last year. I know there is context but that’s where we finished so to go from 17th to 7th would have been pretty stellar progress. To me, top half, as long as it looks like things are going in the right direction, is acceptable.
I do agree the bar is low though. I understand that we have players out but we’re lauding a home draw to Sunderland (who I believe were missing a few themselves), seeing good signs in a defeat to a Bournemouth side who hadn’t won in 11 and clutching to a second half recovery in a 2-1 home cup defeat to Villa. Thats a pretty pathetic place for us to be and that leaves me really struggling to see how Frank can save himself.
Silly McSilly Face
Kasey Keller
Its not like we are really playing well but just being beaten by bettee teams. There's a lack of aggression and purpose to everything we do. 2nd half tonight was better but the 1st half we didn't even make it difficult for them
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Steve Carr
Moyes’ Everton finished 17th and then 4th.
But in all seriousness, I don’t look at our squad and think we should be anywhere near 17th, I think that’s mad. I think you need to raise yours. We were not the 17th best team in the league last year, it was an exceptional circumstance that will likely never be repeated. We were 5th the season before, and our squad last year was better than the season we got 5th,
Any manager would have had us well ahead of 17th this year. I don’t think I need to get a grip on my expectations at all. The club set them. More wins more often. Competing on all fronts. @Finney Is Back did a great job of surfacing the poll earlier. Barely anyone was saying 8th or less.
We are in dreadful form, and confidence is on the floor. I think it has spiralled and become a thing in and of itself. And is affecting the players. But I don’t think anyone at the club would have been thinking at the start of the year they’d be happy with just 8th. Or thinking anything above 17th was improvement. Only if you took completely the wrong reading from what actually happened last year would you think that.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Steve Carr
Fair points.
Also I realise I didn’t articulate myself well enough in that first post. It’s not that I’m saying European qualification is the minimum with this squad (although I do actually think we should be competing for those places) I’m saying that the situation we find ourselves in now means it is the only way this year is not a complete waste.
Top 10 and an FA Cup Semi I probably would have been happy with honestly, if there were progress on all other fronts (style of play etc). But now we’re out of everything else, competing on all fronts is over. We need to compete in the league, and we’re going to need some pretty drastic improvement to get through what is a tough looking February. Otherwise we’ve wasted the year. It’s just a fact.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Steve Carr
If Vinai is truly Mr Long Term and we end up keeping Frank, and we stick it through a nothing season because of his foresight and end up getting to a place similar to Arsenal right now of consistent high level performances, I’ll say it will have been a really great move.
I guess the whole bet is that massive organisational alignment between data driven decision makers like Frank and Lange, over a long enough time period, making the high % plays is going to compound into winning football. We’ll see if it comes off.
I guess my curiosity is, why was this (the Lange / Frank model) the one that this club would have decided to double down on? Out of all the models out there? Why the one that is misaligned with the values of the fanbase and one that breeds immediate toxicity if results don’t follow?
I also think if this is Vinai’s play he needs to get way more visible defending Frank. If this is a real long term project they should be explaining what they think the fans should be seeing, and what they are working towards. Because it’s not fair on Frank to be getting booed by the fans and getting sacked in the morning chants from the south stand. To not defend him now is to act like you’re waiting to see how results improve. So I say back him publically if that’s the intention. Especially when you said upon joining you’d be much more of a public face.
I guess the whole bet is that massive organisational alignment between data driven decision makers like Frank and Lange, over a long enough time period, making the high % plays is going to compound into winning football. We’ll see if it comes off.
I guess my curiosity is, why was this (the Lange / Frank model) the one that this club would have decided to double down on? Out of all the models out there? Why the one that is misaligned with the values of the fanbase and one that breeds immediate toxicity if results don’t follow?
I also think if this is Vinai’s play he needs to get way more visible defending Frank. If this is a real long term project they should be explaining what they think the fans should be seeing, and what they are working towards. Because it’s not fair on Frank to be getting booed by the fans and getting sacked in the morning chants from the south stand. To not defend him now is to act like you’re waiting to see how results improve. So I say back him publically if that’s the intention. Especially when you said upon joining you’d be much more of a public face.
SissokoWasGood (BoL)
Steve Carr
To make my point another way, absolutely any mention of 17th last year also needs to include the mention of the Europa win. Because you could also say that no clubs that have finished in the last place before relegation have pulled something like that off. Clearly it was a special circumstance, and clearly we were lead by someone who was willing to think very differently about how we could win something despite the horrific circumstances we faced.
That’s why I don’t buy this idea that improving from 17th would be some big achievement. If we were favourites for Europa and should have walked it anyway, clearly we’re not a 17th placed squad. A simple way of looking at it would be to say that averaging out the Europa win and the 17th placed finish probably equals out to a 10th place finish. And maybe with all the injuries you take that to go again next year. If we finished 10th last year with no trophy, would we then be accepting of 10th and no trophy this year? Would that constitute improvement? Would it have been worth it? (Maybe, if as I say Vinai is Mr Long Term, but they would owe it to the fans to nail their flag to the mast and defend the fact that they were willing to write off another league season to build toward some ultimate goal that isn’t obvious to most right now…)
I don’t think Frank is building on a 17th placed finish. If we ignore the trophy, he’s building on a side that routinely qualified for Europe through the league but slipped the previous season due to an u precedented injury crisis. That’s why I think we should at least be competing in the European places, or making a serious cup run this year. Something for the season not to be a waste. Something for the upheaval to have been worth it. (Again, I’m very open to the idea there’s a long term play, but it wasn’t what was communicated at the start of this season and it hasn’t been articulated well at all through a tough period)