I'd get that if your position was one of let's see where we go from here, but it seems like you've made your mind up?
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Daniel Levy - Chairman
- Thread starter Howard Webb
- Start date
I'd get that if your position was one of let's see where we go from here, but it seems like you've made your mind up?
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
And look at some of the money thrown away on sacking managers, and losing CL revenue? I'm just saying, difference decisions could have been taken that would have seen us on a better path on the football side. I don't have confidence that ENIC want us to really make the leap, because if so I don't think we would be struggling to find a good match with a coach like ETH. I think he would be jumping all over this job if the owners were able to make the pitch that I would have thought they would be making. And I think our standing compared to 2 years ago has plummeted.
Fair play - you have the confidence that ENIC will get us there, slow and steady and sustainably, I just have no confidence in it. I don't think they have a clue on the football side, I think they want pliable managers to squeeze more and more out what will more often than not be the 6th best squad in the League.
If they wanted pliable managers they wouldn't have gone for Redknapp and definitely not Mourinho
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
See above. Made my mind up because of sacking Poch and the failed Jose experiment. If they were intent on having us make the leap, they could have done more to make it work with a man they struck gold with. Instead they thought their plan was better, Jose will squeeze more out of the squad, and if he doesn't, well we'll still probably get 6th anyway.
I look at the noises coming from the club, I look at the noises the players are making, I look at the terrible last 2 years we have had, I look at good coaches that should completely fit our mould not jumping all over this job, and I conclude something isn't right. Not if we really want to push on. Not when you compare where we were two years ago to where we are today. We have regressed to a level ENIC are comfortable with.
I could be totally wrong, and things could all be about to massively change once fans are back in the stadiums and everything feels normal again. But then I always come back to, you were so close with Poch, why didn't you back him? You will have had to rebuild anyway, you would have had to make these signings anyway, why did you let him go when we were so close? Either they didn't understand why he was successful, or they didn't want to do what it took to make the final leap from a position of strength. That's why I have no confidence in them. Because if things were really about to change, Poch wouldn't have been so tinkled off, they would have found a way to make it work, and we wouldn't have just gone through the last two years rubbish on the football side. Either they don't get what made Poch successful and what makes a team successful, or they just didn't care because their financial plan was more important to them. Either way, that's why I don't trust them.
I agree that mistakes/the wrong decisions were made over the period of leaving WHL to where we are now - I'm just prepared to cut the club some slack because i think maintaining a challenge at the top end of what is a very competitive league whilst building a stadium is probably a hard job, much harder than what most of the critics taking aim at them would appear to have you believe. We're a good manager appointment away from challenging for top 4 and higher, next season and beyond - having come through a stadium build, all things considered i think it's not too bad?
Lemonade Money
Steffen Freund
Finney's got a new friend and now they've gone into overdrive. You wish you had the brain of Levy.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Got Redknapp out at the first opportunity after overachieving.
Jose was actually pretty pliable if you ask me. Worked with the squad, agreed with Levy it was good, believed in himself to a fault. Took signings like Bergwijn. But fundamentally Jose really believed he was special and could get a tune out of these players, and it just didn't work. And frankly because he's had all of the success he could ever need, I think he was perfectly comfortable doing things his way, within our constraints, until he was sacked. He wasn't going to kick up a fuss, he wasn't going to apply the pressure like Poch did, he was doing things his way until the pay off came. I don't blame him.
All the talk of Poch as if he is some sort of messiah is ridiculous. He did great for us, but for the last 12 months he had checked out. He knew the circumstances around the stadium and whether he was not willing to wait for the new revenue to kick in or was just burnt out it was time for him to go.
No need to open that can of worms as it will only sidetrack the Levy talk but i certainly agree the club let him down (though not without a valid excuse) on the rebuild and eventually cut him loose far too early
Redknapp got Redknapp out. Jose was not pliable, never has been and never will be. He had stated that the squad was the best in the league alongside City and Liverpool the season before Poch got sacked, nothing to do with agreeing with Levy.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Yeah...I guess it's fine. Would rather be us than Saudi Sportswashing Machine. Except football wise that is exactly where we were 7 years ago. Actually it's exactly where we were 15 years ago. And 2 years ago, we weren't talking about 'challenging for the top 4', we were the top 4. We'd booted Arsenal out of it after 20 years. We had the stadium, we had some top players, and we had a top manager. And now we have top managers not really interested in what we have to offer, we have players making noises about needing to leave to win trophies, and we have our captain talking about this squad lacking basic fundamentals. The spirit is gone.
It's not too bad, but I'm just a bit stunned that you're happy that we have regressed back to this point when we came so close.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
How is anything you've said there showing that Jose wasn't pliable?
When I say pliable I mean someone to come in and work exactly to ENIC's plan. Did Jose really kick up a fuss? Did Jose demand things, apply pressure publicly, or do anything that suggested he wasn't on board with the job he was given?
I think he took on the job under the proviso the squad was good, but had lost it's way under Poch, and needed a different voice to get it back to the level it deserved. That was the job, and I think Jose was happy for the opportunity. He wasn't demanding (publicly) that ENIC rip out their playbook and really go for it. He wasn't doing interviews with Gary Lineker talking about needing new furniture. He took the job, and was happy to do it his way until he was sacked. And ENIC were happy to give him that shot because it meant they didn't have to trust in someone who was challenging their carefully laid out plans.
Personally I'm not happy that we regressed, but at the same time I can see that it isn't always going to be continuous improvement season after season. We improved under Jol, regressed under Ramos and had fans crying that Levy had messed up. We improved under Redknapp and then regressed under AVB, again the same thing, Levy had messed up. We improved under Poch, regressed under Mourinho. Every football club has ups and downs, if the long term trajectory is positive then I can accept the short term bumps, one like we have now.
I can't believe I'm reading this from you tbh BoL, regressed to where we were 7 years ago? Come off it i know you're smarter than that - the club is in a much better position even if on the field we're in a bad spot, (5th in the table a bad spot indeed)
I sometimes think the club would have been better off skirting 4th/5th whilst building the stadium rather than challenging as missing out having been close seems to have fried some brains
He discarded players letting their value drop. I doubt that was part of Levy's plan.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
I'll admit to not knowing exactly how we work our finances, but I'm pretty sure it won't have worked like new revenue 'kicking in'. I think we had already upped our wage structure before we moved in, hence the new contract for Kane and a few others, and so certainly on one level we were already working on a slightly different platform back then.
I think the issue stemmed from Poch wanting us to be decisive about moving players on, so that if we brought players in there was space to sign real quality. But this would have meant Levy being willing to take haircuts on players like Eriksen, Toby and Rose that he didn't think he should be taking, because they are good players and a different manager will be able to get them to perform. And we don't want Levy looking like he is willing to sell too easily if ENIC's plan is going to work.
I don't think Poch is a messiah. I think he is the best manager we could have hoped for. And I think he had a real plan for us to compete at a higher level consistently, but it involved trusting his view of football and squad building. I think he was tinkled off, I think he grew as a manager and realised ENIC didn't share his ambition, and I think it broke down from there. And this is where my trust in ENIC breaks down - that we struck gold with him, someone that would turn down Real to stay with us and wanted us to succeed, and couldn't find a way to make it work. That is on them. It is the same reason now other top managers don't want this job. That he 'burnt out', that is was 'time for him to go', I think is on them. He would have been fully engaged if he thought this club shared his ambition and trusted him, as much as he once trusted them.
BrainOfLevy
Michael Carrick
Sure - that was Jose doing management his way. But he didn't publicly ask for any of them to be sold, did he? As I said, he was going to do the job his way, until he was sacked.
Poch was actually more aligned with Levy philosophically, but became less pliable. Poch would develop young players. He certainly wouldn't have discarded Winks or Dele. But he became more of a problem for ENIC once he started publicly insisting the club needed to change. Jose was here for a good time and not a long time, and I think was perfectly happy to spin the wheel and see if his methods got us back to where we were. If so, Jose's still got it. If not, it's Spurs, we don't win trophies anyway, and given he's won them everywhere he's been, he has a fair argument there that it wasn't him, it was us.
That Poch was willing to kick up a fuss publicly was because he cared more about us and wanted to see us succeed. I certainly think Jose would have been happy if we succeeded, but it didn't mean the world to him. So he was pliable.
Robspur12
John Lacy
Not aware they have ever done it.
Robspur12
John Lacy
Last 12 months he had checked out? Must be easy then to get a team to the Champions League final. It's more a case that the squad had reached its limit.