*** OMT: Tottenham Hotspur vs. Wolves ***

[Robspur12]

We haven’t seen consistently good football for a long time now, since the first season at Wembley maybe? At least a couple of years anyway.

I think since we lost Dembele and Wanyama as the central pivots.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

My concern is we have been here before with cup wins albeit more than a decade since the last one. League and champions league gives us a platform to build on and it’s important we get that right, the cups just bring short term joy but have never really brought us success to build on in the bigger competitions.

I’d imagine Jose’s number 1 objective this season is to get Champions League football?

 

[braineclipse]

Wouldn’t argue with most of that, except the last bit about its this season or never for us looking like title contenders under him. He has constantly spoke about the long term here, and whilst you can say that’s just typical talk that doesn’t mean anything I’m not so sure. People always reference he hasn’t stayed anywhere for more than three/four seasons but they are at clubs where anything less than winning the titles is a failure. Whilst the expectation is high here due to our progression on and off the pitch, if he doesn’t win the league he’s not going to get sacked - it’s not a Real Madrid, Chelsea type of pressure. The environment here is completely different, and personally I think next season after two more transfer windows is when we will really see where we are under him. As a side note I’ll also say whether people want him gone or not, he won’t be going anywhere for a good while - the way Levy looks at him, I honestly think he worships him....

Agreed.

It's true that this is second season here, it's also true that this is his first full season here.

I'm not sure many other managers would have gotten the "title challengers next season" expectations when taking over a bit over a year ago. Perhaps that's just the way it is with Mourinho, that players will tire of him and his methods at some point in the next 12 months so it's now or never. Perhaps that's just the impression created because of some of the clubs he's managed.

Either way I think it's fair to say that Mourinho is being held to a standard very few others would be held to. By that standard he's currently failing a we're not looking like title challengers.

If there is a belief within the club that things can be different here than at Chelsea and Real Madrid, that he can make his methods work over a longer period of time here for whatever reasons it's a different story.

 

[StephenH]

I’d imagine Jose’s number 1 objective this season is to get Champions League football?

Then he will have to change his current attitude and thus our setup.

 

[awesome dawson]

Most one sided MOTM poll of the season? Yet he was the one Jose decided to replace first.

 

[DaveT316]

The wolves players could take the ball on the half turn, tight spaces, move the ball a lot quicker than us. We just don’t have many players that can play that way. I’m not sure it’s instruction.

If Jose says they’re not doing what he’s asked of them, it provokes the question, are they incapable of carrying out his instructions or wilfully ignoring them.

 

[Robspur12]

Agreed.

It's true that this is second season here, it's also true that this is his first full season here.

I'm not sure many other managers would have gotten the "title challengers next season" expectations when taking over a bit over a year ago. Perhaps that's just the way it is with Mourinho, that players will tire of him and his methods at some point in the next 12 months so it's now or never. Perhaps that's just the impression created because of some of the clubs he's managed.

Either way I think it's fair to say that Mourinho is being held to a standard very few others would be held to. By that standard he's currently failing a we're not looking like title challengers.

If there is a belief within the club that things can be different here than at Chelsea and Real Madrid, that he can make his methods work over a longer period of time here for whatever reasons it's a different story.

I think it is right to hold Jose to a different standard to other managers. He is in a small group of elite managers. He brings that expectation. He has done it before and he has been backed by the chairman giving him a pretty good squad. You appoint him to bring short term success. I genuinely believed he was the one manager who could deliver that title this season. I expected more than a a Carabao cup win tbh. That’s not what you appoint Jose Mourinho for.

Hell fans were saying Poch should have won the league in the Leicester season, his second season, when he had not received any where near the backing of Mourinho and had far bigger holes in his squad. It is not unreasonable to expect more from Mourinho than just top 4 when pretty much every side in the league has failed to convince this season.

 

[StephenH]

The wolves players could take the ball on the half turn, tight spaces, move the ball a lot quicker than us. We just don’t have many players that can play that way. I’m not sure it’s instruction.

If Jose says they’re not doing what he’s asked of them, it provokes the question, are they incapable of carrying out his instructions or wilfully ignoring them.

Bit of both. But it a stupid man that doesn't change when things are not working.

 

[billyiddo]

Agreed.

It's true that this is second season here, it's also true that this is his first full season here.

I'm not sure many other managers would have gotten the "title challengers next season" expectations when taking over a bit over a year ago. Perhaps that's just the way it is with Mourinho, that players will tire of him and his methods at some point in the next 12 months so it's now or never. Perhaps that's just the impression created because of some of the clubs he's managed.

Either way I think it's fair to say that Mourinho is being held to a standard very few others would be held to. By that standard he's currently failing a we're not looking like title challengers.

If there is a belief within the club that things can be different here than at Chelsea and Real Madrid, that he can make his methods work over a longer period of time here for whatever reasons it's a different story.

Sorry but i think you're missing the point - It's the style of football that is ultimately driving the negativity towards Jose, not league position - which points wise isn't actually too bad for this far in to the season.

The argument as far as i can see regarding being title challengers is that that is the bar required to be at to make this brick anti football somewhat acceptable.

If anything Mourinho is being excused the negative football because of who he is - an unkown manager or one with a lesser reputation would surely be getting it much worse than a manager who his defenders can and do regularly point to his reputation as a response to criticism?

 

[DubSpur]

The wolves players could take the ball on the half turn, tight spaces, move the ball a lot quicker than us. We just don’t have many players that can play that way. I’m not sure it’s instruction.

If Jose says they’re not doing what he’s asked of them, it provokes the question, are they incapable of carrying out his instructions or wilfully ignoring them.

Or are they capable of doing it but afraid of making a mistake, getting hooked, and being dropped so play it safe?

 

[Rorschach]

We haven’t seen consistently good football for a long time now, since the first season at Wembley maybe? At least a couple of years anyway.

That's fair, though the end of any managers tenure things are by definition going wrong. What we are seeing now is by design.

 

[braineclipse]

Sorry but i think you're missing the point - It's the style of football that is ultimately driving the negativity towards Jose, not league position - which points wise isn't actually too bad for this far in to the season.

The argument as far as i can see regarding being title challengers is that that is the bar required to be at to make this brick anti football somewhat acceptable.

If anything Mourinho is being excused the negative football because of who he is - an unkown manager or one with a lesser reputation would surely be getting it much worse than a manager who his defenders can and do regularly point to his reputation as a response to criticism?

Which is fair enough. But it still means that in terms of results he's being held to a different standard.

Fair enough to hold him to a different standard for results, either because of his reputation or because the style of football is too boring to you or for some other reason.

I think it's worth pointing out that he's being held to a different standard none the less.

The way I see it we have some issues that needs sorting, issues that have been there for a very long time now. Attacking against settled defenses and playing out trough pressure being the most important imo. We've seen improvements in other areas, but not enough in those two yet. It's two of the most difficult things to do in football the way I see it so I'm unsurprised that it's taking time. But there needs to be improvement, as I've said repeatedly.

If Mourinho shouldn't be given the time to sort that out because the football is too boring and until we do we're not title challengers then we just disagree on that opinion. If he can't sort it out we're in agreement.

 

[braineclipse]

The wolves players could take the ball on the half turn, tight spaces, move the ball a lot quicker than us. We just don’t have many players that can play that way. I’m not sure it’s instruction.

If Jose says they’re not doing what he’s asked of them, it provokes the question, are they incapable of carrying out his instructions or wilfully ignoring them.

To some extent I think it's a lack of quality. We have some fantastic players and we have some players that just aren't at that level.

I don't think it's a matter of being unwilling to do what's being asked, but I do think it takes time. Including time on the training ground to work on these things. People say this is his second season, but in previous second seasons at other clubs he's had longer time with the players and two proper preseasons to work on these things. Now we're in the middle of a famously busy season following a stunted preseason.

Not looking to make excuses, but I can understand that it takes time and the amount of time he's had remains fairly limited.

 

[Bishop]

Sorry but i think you're missing the point - It's the style of football that is ultimately driving the negativity towards Jose, not league position - which points wise isn't actually too bad for this far in to the season.

The argument as far as i can see regarding being title challengers is that that is the bar required to be at to make this brick anti football somewhat acceptable.

If anything Mourinho is being excused the negative football because of who he is - an unkown manager or one with a lesser reputation would surely be getting it much worse than a manager who his defenders can and do regularly point to his reputation as a response to criticism?

We would be getting booed at home if the manager's name was anything but Jose Mourinho.

Like you say league position isn't the issue, it's the cowardly approach and cowardly approach to matches that is causing the backlash.

 

[SteveAWOL]

I think since we lost Dembele and Wanyama as the central pivots.

Yup, Pochettino knew a brickstorm was coming and wanted Levy to be brave but instead had to make do with 2 beasts who were ready for the knackers yard plus a wantaway Danish talisman.

2 years later and these transferless windows are still hurting the team.



Bit like how it took us years to recover from squandering Bale bounty on S Club 7.

 

[billyiddo]

Which is fair enough. But it still means that in terms of results he's being held to a different standard.

Fair enough to hold him to a different standard for results, either because of his reputation or because the style of football is too boring to you or for some other reason.

I think it's worth pointing out that he's being held to a different standard none the less.

The way I see it we have some issues that needs sorting, issues that have been there for a very long time now. Attacking against settled defenses and playing out trough pressure being the most important imo. We've seen improvements in other areas, but not enough in those two yet. It's two of the most difficult things to do in football the way I see it so I'm unsurprised that it's taking time. But there needs to be improvement, as I've said repeatedly.

If Mourinho shouldn't be given the time to sort that out because the football is too boring and until we do we're not title challengers then we just disagree on that opinion. If he can't sort it out we're in agreement.

Agree to disagree on the higher standards stuff i think.

Where do you see improvements exactly? I see an improved defensive output but that is because we are playing all out defense, that's not something that can be brought forward if the plan is to play a more expansive game, as the core of the improvement is directly linked to having so many players back behind the ball in deep areas. Most other areas of play i see us regressing atm

 

[braineclipse]

Agree to disagree on the higher standards stuff i think.

Where do you see improvements exactly? I see an improved defensive output but that is because we are playing all out defense, that's not something that can be brought forward if the plan is to play a more expansive game, as the core of the improvement is directly linked to having so many players back behind the ball in deep areas. Most other areas of play i see us regressing atm

Depends on what you see as the starting point to base improvement on. If you can't see the improvement from the last 10 months of league form under Pochettino I don't know where to start. We were doing a bit better than a point a game on average over a fairly long period of time iirc.

If it's over the last couple of months I agree, there haven't been enough improvement. I don't expect linear improvement though.

On the system. I thought Mourinho was getting stick for being his defensive old self. Playing the boring football people expected from him based on what he's done at previous clubs. They weren't always this toothless though, if they had been I don't think he would have won as much as he did. I think he's capable of finding that balance between keeping us solid defensively and being better going forward.

He may need more signings to do it. That may be seen as not good enough as he should improve the players already here, but at the same time the amount of players we've lost and/or have declined because of age since we were really good under Pochettino I'm not sure that's unreasonable.

He may also just need more time. I repeat myself, but he's only been here a year, he's had one stunted preseason so far.

Our improvement has plateued, or maybe we've even regressed. He needs to start showing improvement again in the coming months and definitely this season or I will start asking some of the same questions you're asking.

 

[billyiddo]

Depends on what you see as the starting point to base improvement on. If you can't see the improvement from the last 10 months of league form under Pochettino I don't know where to start. We were doing a bit better than a point a game on average over a fairly long period of time iirc.

If it's over the last couple of months I agree, there haven't been enough improvement. I don't expect linear improvement though.

On the system. I thought Mourinho was getting stick for being his defensive old self. Playing the boring football people expected from him based on what he's done at previous clubs. They weren't always this toothless though, if they had been I don't think he would have won as much as he did. I think he's capable of finding that balance between keeping us solid defensively and being better going forward.

He may need more signings to do it. That may be seen as not good enough as he should improve the players already here, but at the same time the amount of players we've lost and/or have declined because of age since we were really good under Pochettino I'm not sure that's unreasonable.

He may also just need more time. I repeat myself, but he's only been here a year, he's had one stunted preseason so far.

Our improvement has plateued, or maybe we've even regressed. He needs to start showing improvement again in the coming months and definitely this season or I will start asking some of the same questions you're asking.

We're 6 points better off in Joses first 40 games than Pochs last 40 - considering the latters form got him sacked that doesn't speak of much improvement in quantifiable terms, wrt what i actually see with my own eyes i see that we are harder to beat, that's it. I don't see any attacking/possession improvement on Pochs last year.

Purely talking in terms of Mourinhos time here we have become better defensively (as we now play backs to the wall defensive football) but have regressed dramatically in terms of attacking play - was quite lively in front of goal before the restart, although that's looking ever more like a new manager bounce - we don't even look like we know how to create counter attacking opportunities anymore and when we do they aren't regular enough to result in enough goals.

We sacked our previous manager and are paying his replacement double (?) so he can play all out defense - that's the situation we're in. Forgive me for expecting more

 

[harr1984]

We're 6 points better off in Joses first 40 games than Pochs last 40 - considering the latters form got him sacked that doesn't speak of much improvement in quantifiable terms, wrt what i actually see with my own eyes i see that we are harder to beat, that's it. I don't see any attacking improvement.

Purely talking in terms of Mourinhos time here we have become better defensively (as we now play backs to the wall defensive football) but have regressed dramatically in terms of attacking play - was quite lively in front of goal before the restart, although that's looking ever more like a new manager bounce - we don't even look like we know how to create counter attacking opportunities anymore and when we do they aren't regular enough to result in enough goals.

What is the point of comparing points totals in previous seasons? All teams in the league are completely at completely different levels from then.The facts are we are six points off top spot, coming up to half way in the season. When Poch got sacked we were a couple of points outside the relegation spots and didn’t have a coronavirus situation to deal with muddling up two seasons. You’re entitled to criticise whatever you see fit to, but those stats are pretty meaningless....

 

[Yiddo]

Our problem is we are a counter attacking team that are brick at counter attacking. Yeah we started very well and scoring goals for fun but now that everyone knows how we are playing we are forced to just hit it long and hope for the best.

We need to start dominating smaller teams not sitting back and allowing them 80 minutes to create a chance.