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Politics, politics, politics

glorygloryeze said:
All can be done outside of EU

Can be done outside the confines of EU, if UK are that bothered to go through with it

You are just saying brick which is not true. Ending free movement means just that. We can't have it both ways. Ending free trade with the EU means putting in place a free trade agreement with them - not easy - and there will be less free trade that we have now. You are in denial. The Eu provides a means for us to cooperate with neighbours. How will leaving allow us to be part of the conversation? It is suboptimal. We are not going to create a new body to allow us to cooperate, why would you?

Who will pay for the UK sattelite system? It is a massive project only the US, China, EU could command. Again, you have been lied to, and you seem to believe it. Or maybe you know in your heart, there won't be a UK sattelite system. We'll ask for hand me downs from the EU and US system.


Oh well, good luck to them.


Again, can be done outside of EU.


Peace CAN exist outside of EU

Anything CAN happen. But let's talk facts not possibilites. What we know is post WWII europe has been peaceful and prosperous. When war started in ex-Yogoslavia the EU helped to stop it.

Possible, but again cooperation CAN be done outside of EU

Can does not equal will. How do you get nations to clean up, when other nations get a competitive advantage by producing stuff cheaper when not clean?

No doubt, the EU wants to be LOTs of things, not least a new United States, but of Europe instead of America. Hitler and Napoleon wanted that too...doomed to failure as unlike the USA there are a vast number of languages, peoples, cultures, Economies and rich histories that to meld them into one country will not ultimately work.

Yes I agree! So what are you worried about. The EU could not be like the federal US. Instead, the EU is a conduit for cooperation, full integration is never on the cards. We have seperate languages, seperate democracies etc. Don't let people tell you otherwise or scare you into thinking that that will change. It won't. So many nationalist members of the EU now - France, UK, Germany, Hungry etc etc all the members are nationalist strong nations, how would a federal Europe come about??

All depends on how one spins 'positive'...i don't believe most of those things are 'positive' in or of themselves and i certainly don't think they are worth the negatives that i forsee in future (which will only be resolved by mass unrest when people realise they have little/no voice in the reality of how politics works in the EU.
Averting this disaster now is a good enough positive of Brexit for me. Regardless, whatever positive is provided if you are a staunch remainer you will not accept it s all this talk is a bit moot (as well as having been done to death), especially as we actually haven't left yet.
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Your arguement is based upon fear. But credit to you for making it. And yes trying to put seperate economies into one is fraught. Thankfully the UK is not in the Euro. But your doomsday scenerio is not happening. The EU doesn't do that much. It doesn't impact people half as much as you seem to think. If it did people might vote in EU elections. Did you?
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Your arguement is based upon fear. But credit to you for making it. And yes trying to put seperate economies into one is fraught. Thankfully the UK is not in the Euro. But your doomsday scenerio is not happening. The EU doesn't do that much. It doesn't impact people half as much as you seem to think. If it did people might vote in EU elections. Did you?
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My arguments are no more based on fear than yours are. The EU does provide a means to cooperate but only on the terms of the group. Again cooperation can and does exist outside of the confines of the EU.
Ending freedom of movement doesn't automatically equal ending free trade it just ends the free trade that the EU stipulate must include freedom of movement.
Satellite systems: who cares? Is that really so important to you? Do you think most people want to stay in (or out) of the EU based on satellite systems??
Peace and war: again can and does exists outside the EU. Switzeland and Norway for example exist outside the EU...have they had constant peace since WW2? If so, is that anything to do with them being in or out of the EU?
Pollution clean-up: is this again only something that can happen if a country is in the EU?
So will life outside of the EU mean we stop breathing overnight? No, again i say a lot of what you say is based on fear if mine are. Oh and if the EU doesn't actually do that much, why then are you moaning so much about Brexit??
In EU elections, do you vote? If so, what policies do you vote on? Why do you choose one candidate over another?
 
DTA said:
Brexiters want to make your country poorer.

brexeters don't care about your nan dying in hospital because of lack of medicine

Brexiters linked to Putin. FACT.
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Wierd thing is its true.

Just shows the lack of effective campaining for Remain. Has a lot to do with the Sun, Telegraph, Express etc being owned by moguls who don't like the EU so they wouldn't allow such headlines.
 
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r-u-s-x said:
Do you think, I think it is different to that. They saw Norway as an achievable milestone on the road to a harder Brexit, they could get more people onside with a slight change than a major change -- they didn't think they would win it but this was the way they could get a smaller loss. Once they realized they had a chance of winning they changed their position to their true position.

In short soft was a way to win the referendum while harder was the end goal that they thought would not win the referendum.
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I don't think they were that clever.

Ireland the biggest issue for brexit wasn't even considered. Truth is it is highly complex and its only by doing it, that we are uncovering the reality. Humans are always experts as soon as we (or another) has done something. But we're not that good at forethought. Some are, but everyone knows after the event!
 
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glorygloryeze said:
forecast based on emotion
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All of it is based on emotion from ERG side.
If those who are in favour of Brexit had the balls to actually say what they say behind closed doors in the private meetings when they have their left trouser legs turned up, at least we would see their true colours and intent.

The truly funny part is the ERG who instigated all this and got all 'disenchanted' to do their bidding are tinkling themselves laughing at us all as they are bulletproof with very well paid cushy 'jobs for the boys' in Tory safe seats, paid independent directorships, trust funds and titles that come with country estates.
Why should they give a toss about the NHS (Boris and Fox will be private), the lack of care for the elderly, jobs being lost in the car industry and service sector?
 
the dza said:
There's no appetite for a 2nd ref in Parliament, so there is no all-in or all-out option at the moment. The potential option is all-out or soft-Brexit. I choose soft-Brexit, accepting the flaws.
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I respect your decision, I dont share it - but thats beside the point.

That that is the decision to be made really is the problem though, one that is self inflicted.
 
glorygloryeze said:
My arguments are no more based on fear than yours are. The EU does provide a means to cooperate but only on the terms of the group. Again cooperation can and does exist outside of the confines of the EU.
Ending freedom of movement doesn't automatically equal ending free trade it just ends the free trade that the EU stipulate must include freedom of movement.
Satellite systems: who cares? Is that really so important to you? Do you think most people want to stay in (or out) of the EU based on satellite systems??
Peace and war: again can and does exists outside the EU. Switzeland and Norway for example exist outside the EU...have they had constant peace since WW2? If so, is that anything to do with them being in or out of the EU?
Pollution clean-up: is this again only something that can happen if a country is in the EU?
So will life outside of the EU mean we stop breathing overnight? No, again i say a lot of what you say is based on fear if mine are. Oh and if the EU doesn't actually do that much, why then are you moaning so much about Brexit??
In EU elections, do you vote? If so, what policies do you vote on? Why do you choose one candidate over another?
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We'll agree to disagree. I've outlined some of the benifits the EU gives us and the UK. You've stated you want to leave to avoid an EU apocalypse (what if that does not occur?) Then you've denied that there is value in the UK having postive things like a sattelite system to spy on the world, run new sophisticated GPS systems, conduct research on weather, global warming etc and be paid for the development by the EU. You've convinced yourself that exiting the EU won't affect free trade with the EU, and won't acknowledge that europe has had peace within the EU (facts not possibilities). And you don't seem to get that having a facillity in the form of the EU allows us to work with neighbouring nations. This facilitates cooperation (what would you put in place instead?). It also allows the EU to exert influnce on 3rd nations like Turkey to clean up their emmissions etc.

No one said armageddon was possible becuase of being in or out the EU (actually you did). No one else is stating that remaining in the EU could bring about chaos (though the reverse is proving to be the case). Life goes on. Just a suboptional one for the UK. Why am I making so much of it - becuase it is blantly and obviously not the right thing to do. The EU does not interfere with our lives, but it provides freedom to trade, and a means to communicate and work with other nations. All good things. All forward thinking things.

If Brexit went really well, and the UK became stronger with a better economy post Brexit I would hold my hands up and admit I called it wrong. What would make you hold your hands up and say breixt didn't work? Where do you draw the line of success or failure of Brexit?

ps enjoy your posts and thank you for posting them.
 
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DTA said:
I think us 'remainers' are approaching this from the wrong angle. We try to use logic and facts to inform Brexiteers about the folly of Brexit.

But emotions will always hold more sway to most rather than logic and facts. This is demonstrated by the Brexiteers retoric being strong on emotions and weak on facts, yet they are setting the shape of the discourse. Why?

We need to be more base.

We need to start calling the Brexiters traitors

Russian stodges.

We need to start making brick up like the Brexiters do.

In short we need to win the emotional argument... Winning the factual one is not enough.

Taking the high road doesn't work, let's get dirty... Let's have a dust up.
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That's where remain got it wrong from the start. The campaign was sneering and fear mongering. No one engaged intellectually on the big issues of who governs, consent, accountability, enabling change etc. No one (aside from Cleggy) showed any love for the EU.

The campaign was basically 'the EU is crap, but without it the world will end, you wouldn't understand you racists'. And that's basically where the Umunnaites and the MSM is still at.
 
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https://www.theguardian.com/politic...after-sending-brexit-plan-to-pm-politics-live

  • Verhofstadt said May should seek a cross-party solution to Brexit. Without that, she would not have a solid majority for a deal, he said.
We cannot have an agreement with uncertainty in the UK based on majorities of six, seven, eight, nine votes in the House of Commons. Cross-party cooperation is the way forward, and I can say that we welcome also the letter that Jeremy Corbyn has written today to Mrs May to offer such a cross-party exit. It is important now that this leads to a position in the UK that has the broadest possible majority so that we can conclude this negotiation.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I don't think they were that clever.

Irland the biggest issue for brexit wasn't even considered. Truth is it is highly complex and its only by doing it, that we are uncovering the reality. Humans are always experts as soon as we (or another) has done something. But we're not that good at forethought. Some are, but everyone knows after the event!
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I am not saying they knew the issues but they offered the only deal that would win (lose the least), the end point was always a complete brexit they just didn't care how they got there. This is not those voting but those trying to achieve Brexit.
 
I have not been in here for a good spell, sad to say its become a rehash from the same folks who repeat the same old brick from two years ago, Project fear and it is the same old same old. Its happening and all the crap that project fear have uttered ' (and you know who you are) will not stop it.
 
I was reading that there are ships leaving the UK in the coming days to some of the more far flung places on the planet will arrive close to or after the March 29th deadline. They could arrive at their destination with a completely different set of trade rules in place.
 
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glorygloryeze said:
Sure, potato, Po-Tah-Toh..
Or if you like, an economic forecast based on emotion..
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Um no.... Facts are:

Pound has fallen... growth has been slower than it should have been. House prices in the south east have fallen. House sales access the uk have stagnated. Businesses are leaving the uk because of Brexit. Less people are investing. Etc etc etc.

And we haven't even left yet.

But Putin is happy. And the traitors that have taken his silver are as well I guess.

All the while the useful idiots fiddle while their country suffers.
 
Gutter Boy said:
That's where remain got it wrong from the start. The campaign was sneering and fear mongering. No one engaged intellectually on the big issues of who governs, consent, accountability, enabling change etc. No one (aside from Cleggy) showed any love for the EU.

The campaign was basically 'the EU is crap, but without it the world will end, you wouldn't understand you racists'. And that's basically where the Umunnaites and the MSM is still at.
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fudging hilarious.

Remain lost because we were not base.

fudge it lets take the gloves off and play by Brexiteers rules.
 
DTA said:
Um no.... Facts are:

Pound has fallen... growth has been slower than it should have been. House prices in the south east have fallen. House sales access the uk have stagnated. Businesses are leaving the uk because of Brexit. Less people are investing. Etc etc etc.

And we haven't even left yet.

But Putin is happy. And the traitors that have taken his silver are as well I guess.

All the while the useful idiots fiddle while their country suffers.
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Sorry, are we in recession right now? Did a recession happen overnight? No?

Brexit is of course going to mean some changes/adjustments - it's the biggest political change for a generation.

You are a remainer, fine a fair view.
However, your posts on the subject are getting more and more demented i honestly wonder if Tusk has taken over your account (or even Putin) so i think it'd probably be best for you to take a break for a while...
 
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