Harry Winks

[Robspur12]

Theres a whole can of worms in there, so Im hesitant to get into it to much - but short version for me - despite his improvement Sissoko is still no where near good enough and more hinderance than help.

Nayim, being such a good poster, it frustrates me that you are still peddling this nonsense. Sissoko has been absolutely awesome. Not seen Winks have to cover for him particularly more than any other player. I am wondering how you are seeing things so differently than most fans, the manager, his teammates and every pundit I have listened to.

I love Winksy too and feel posters are rushing to judge him. He's had such a hard couple of years with injuries. I like Dier but feel Winks is already ahead of him.

 

[braineclipse]

Winks is 22. All young players have up and downs, and times when they improve more quickly or more slowly. Remember the game in teh Bernabeu when he was about our only CM and was simply outstanding?

Need to just get behind him - if he's not up to scratch as a 25 year old then sell him (similar to what we did with Townsend) but for now he's fine

If we actually had a senior creative CM who was fit, as Dembele should be, then there would be less pressure on Winks as he could be given breaks when off form. At the moment, he's playing every 3 days out of necessity

Spot on. And playing those games while learning to deal with an injury, and often playing essentially as the lone anchor in what is often a fairly top heavy team with frequent changes to the back four behind him.

He's doing fine. He hasn't been consistently great as we perhaps could have hoped, but I don't think that was a fair expectation.

I fully expect him to return to better form. And I hope and think he will develop further from that.

 

[Rorschach]

Winks is 22. All young players have up and downs, and times when they improve more quickly or more slowly. Remember the game in teh Bernabeu when he was about our only CM and was simply outstanding?

Need to just get behind him - if he's not up to scratch as a 25 year old then sell him (similar to what we did with Townsend) but for now he's fine

If we actually had a senior creative CM who was fit, as Dembele should be, then there would be less pressure on Winks as he could be given breaks when off form. At the moment, he's playing every 3 days out of necessity

I agree with all of this really. He's been asked to do a lot for someone so inexperienced and is more than holding his own IMO.

If I was to pull him up on anything it would be that he is a little reluctant with tracking midfield runners. He needs to sort that out.

 

[Cochise]

In my opinion Winks is playing within himself as a result of being our DM.

At times during the last few games he has darted forwards but stopped early in favour of dropping the ball off to someone else. He knows his position well enough to know that he cannot leave the defence unscreened.

Now I don't think he is a good DM; his positioning can be poor, he is weak in the tackle and he does charge out when he shouldn't. If he fixes all that he becomes the perfect DM.

He does have it in him to be a good all round midfielder, but it's not going to happen at the moment. I actually think he could rotate with Eriksen.

 

[P.D.]

In my opinion Winks is playing within himself as a result of being our DM.

At times during the last few games he has darted forwards but stopped early in favour of dropping the ball off to someone else. He knows his position well enough to know that he cannot leave the defence unscreened.

Now I don't think he is a good DM; his positioning can be poor, he is weak in the tackle and he does charge out when he shouldn't. If he fixes all that he becomes the perfect DM.

He does have it in him to be a good all round midfielder, but it's not going to happen at the moment. I actually think he could rotate with Eriksen.

But the type of player he is will mean he needs to be able to shield the big 4, not necessarily with big tackles but by interceptions, positioning to cut out passing options, being able to hold the ball up in tight spaces, strong first touch etc. Essentially he needs to do what Modric does in time as he's similar in style.

 

[braineclipse]

In my opinion Winks is playing within himself as a result of being our DM.

At times during the last few games he has darted forwards but stopped early in favour of dropping the ball off to someone else. He knows his position well enough to know that he cannot leave the defence unscreened.

Now I don't think he is a good DM; his positioning can be poor, he is weak in the tackle and he does charge out when he shouldn't. If he fixes all that he becomes the perfect DM.

He does have it in him to be a good all round midfielder, but it's not going to happen at the moment. I actually think he could rotate with Eriksen.

If all of what you say about his defensive play was true I don't think we would have done as well as we have with him in that role.

Eriksen brings fantastic end product, I don't really see that from Winks. If that more attacking role becomes his best position I think there's a very real ceiling to his ability below what we need. As a deeper player, call it a DM, deep playmaker or whatever, I think his ceiling is much higher.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Nayim, being such a good poster, it frustrates me that you are still peddling this nonsense. Sissoko has been absolutely awesome. Not seen Winks have to cover for him particularly more than any other player. I am wondering how you are seeing things so differently than most fans, the manager, his teammates and every pundit I have listened to.

Its not nonsense, and he has most assuredly not been "awesome". Unless we are to judge him on his own terms, and not as a footballer in this squad.

He has improved beyond what I ever thought he had in him, without doubt. BUT he isnt actually DOING enough good stuff to warrant the frankly OTT talk about him. The Freund cult like stuff is in full effect.

Now, this is the Winks thread, so Id much rather not derail it with Sissoko talk. My point was only that I dont think Sissoko is a good partner for him, I think he causes plenty of issues for him and forcing Winks to play in such a way to live with it.

I love Winksy too and feel posters are rushing to judge him. He's had such a hard couple of years with injuries. I like Dier but feel Winks is already ahead of him.

Totally different players and not for comparison, IMO. However, I think its fair to say Winks has looked at his best this season with Dier beside him. As it stands they are, for me, our most complimentary midfield pair.

 

[harr1984]

There is no issue with Winks, he isnt currently at his best but that can be due to predictable variables like his age meaning dips in form, recovery from injury etc And even now he isnt exactly doing a lot wrong is he? Hes just been keeping it simple. I dont think where he currently playing is helping, but it seems that Sissoko is instructed to be on the right hand side a lot which means Winks is playing a role that perhaps isnt best suited to him. He is fine in terms of where he is development wise though....

 

[Robspur12]

Its not nonsense, and he has most assuredly not been "awesome". Unless we are to judge him on his own terms, and not as a footballer in this squad.

That is certainly your opinion, however I am not sure you will find many people who share it. Cannot believe you cannot see how important he has been for us this season. Any way we move on.

Totally different players and not for comparison, IMO. However, I think its fair to say Winks has looked at his best this season with Dier beside him. As it stands they are, for me, our most complimentary midfield pair.

I don't think Dier and Winks are totally different players. They are defensive midfielders who have slightly different attributes but in reality they will occupy the same areas on the pitch while Sissoko is more box to box. So a direct comparison is valid. If Winks does play better with Dier next to him, and that is far from clear, it may be because Dier sitting allows Winks to be freer in his role. It's not because he is covering for Sissoko being s**t.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

That is certainly your opinion, however I am not sure you will find many people who share it. Cannot believe you cannot see how important he has been for us this season. Any way we move on.

"Important" is not the same as "Awesome" or even "especially good".

I agree he has been important, and made a significant contribution over all. Doesnt mean I think he is playing especially well or adding much to the team.

I don't think Dier and Winks are totally different players. They are defensive midfielders who have slightly different attributes but in reality they will occupy the same areas on the pitch while Sissoko is more box to box. So a direct comparison is valid. If Winks does play better with Dier next to him, and that is far from clear, it may be because Dier sitting allows Winks to be freer in his role. It's not because he is covering for Sissoko being s**t.

Winks is not a DM IMO. He is as near as Ive seen to Modric, whom I dont think anyone would describe as a DM. He should be moving around CM knitting everything together. Not sitting and protecting.

Dier is absolutely a DM. Hence them not being comparable (IMO) and also why they work well together. Its a very complimentary pair.

Sissoko is a loose canon, covers RB well but does very little actually in CM. Permanently out of position and charging about - hence Winks, despite it not being his game, having to take responsibility and sit in and try to keep things together.

Its a "best of a bad situation" thing, not a preference for the manager.

Annoyingly, as Ive stated many times, I think Sissoko is actually well suited to that sitting/DM position. He proved it against Chelsea. And if we were to play him that way I suspect we would see much more of the good stuff from Winks.

 

[Raziel]

Winks is not a DM IMO. He is as near as Ive seen to Modric, whom I dont think anyone would describe as a DM. He should be moving around CM knitting everything together. Not sitting and protecting.

Dier is absolutely a DM. Hence them not being comparable (IMO) and also why they work well together. Its a very complimentary pair.

Sissoko is a loose canon, covers RB well but does very little actually in CM. Permanently out of position and charging about - hence Winks, despite it not being his game, having to take responsibility and sit in and try to keep things together.

Its a "best of a bad situation" thing, not a preference for the manager.

Annoyingly, as Ive stated many times, I think Sissoko is actually well suited to that sitting/DM position. He proved it against Chelsea. And if we were to play him that way I suspect we would see much more of the good stuff from Winks.

Mate, all opinions, but you have vastly overrated Wink's contribution/ceiling vs. Sissoko.

This season Sissoko has been a much more valuable player to Spurs than Winks, his "charging around" is often covering, intercepting, providing additional protection plus he gets the ball forward with his runs, Winks has been a tidy rotation player ...

Trying to stay out of this "x player is good, hence y player must be brick" rathole this forum tends to go down, but Sissoko's name is on the team sheet now before Winks, every time ..

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Mate, all opinions, but you have vastly overrated Wink's contribution/ceiling vs. Sissoko.

This season Sissoko has been a much more valuable player to Spurs than Winks, his "charging around" is often covering, intercepting, providing additional protection plus he gets the ball forward with his runs, Winks has been a tidy rotation player ...

Trying to stay out of this "x player is good, hence y player must be brick" rathole this forum tends to go down, but Sissoko's name is on the team sheet now before Winks, every time ..

Opinions, as you say.

IMO Sissoko is at 110% capacity. This is about as good as he has ever, and likely will ever, play. And even so I just dont think he is good enough.

Winks? There is a long way to go before this kid has peaked.

Im not even venturing close to the "this player is good means this player is bad" line of thought. My original point was simply that I dont think Sissoko and Winks are compatible, and that Winks is the one paying the price between the two.

Sissokos name is on the teamsheet simply because there are no alternatives. With a full compliment Id be surprised if he wasnt relegated back to bit part player.

 

[StephenH]

Sissokos name is on the teamsheet simply because there are no alternatives.

If Wanyma and Dembele don't go.
Sissoko or Dier?

I think you know who I would pick.
Winks I like but he looks lightweight atm.

 

[afsoc4life]

Thank you Winks for your efforts over the holidays. Without you and Sissoko we would have been down and out.

 

[Finney Is Back]

"Important" is not the same as "Awesome" or even "especially good".

I agree he has been important, and made a significant contribution over all. Doesnt mean I think he is playing especially well or adding much to the team.

Winks is not a DM IMO. He is as near as Ive seen to Modric, whom I dont think anyone would describe as a DM. He should be moving around CM knitting everything together. Not sitting and protecting.

Dier is absolutely a DM. Hence them not being comparable (IMO) and also why they work well together. Its a very complimentary pair.

Sissoko is a loose canon, covers RB well but does very little actually in CM. Permanently out of position and charging about - hence Winks, despite it not being his game, having to take responsibility and sit in and try to keep things together.

Its a "best of a bad situation" thing, not a preference for the manager.

Annoyingly, as Ive stated many times, I think Sissoko is actually well suited to that sitting/DM position. He proved it against Chelsea. And if we were to play him that way I suspect we would see much more of the good stuff from Winks.

The bolded part is a great summary, only suffering from the fact that it is isn't actually true. It is clear from the heatmap of the Cardiff game that Sissoko played on the right of the diamond and maintained his position very well (as did Eriksen on the left of that diamond). Winks' heatmap shows him having a clear bias to the left hand side of the centre, showing that he is actually tending to cover for Eriksen as opposed to covering Sissoko. Note that this is as I would expect as it makes sense for us to allow Eriksen to have a bit more freedom to be more creative and risky with his passing options than Sissoko and also for Eriksen to attempt to get into more shooting positions. Winks' touch map also shows a clear bias toward the left hand side of the pitch.

I would imagine that Pochettino likes Winks at the base of the diamond against the more limited teams like Cardiff who don't tend to do much attacking, especially through the middle of the pitch, as Winks is more adept than Sissoko at calmly receiving the ball from the keeper, centre halves or full backs and recycling possession effectively, especially in a situation where he is facing his own goal, or has a player closing him down as the ball is arriving in a potentially dangerous position. The limited teams like Cardiff are also unlikely to be able to get attacking midfield players into positions that can expose Winks' defensive frailties in one on one situations.

Sissoko plays on the right of the diamond in these same sorts of games as he is more adept than Winks at giving his full back protection against the ball into the channel and also more likely to be able to break through the first line of the opposition's packed defence with a direct run.

It is just horses for courses IMO.

 

[braineclipse]

I really like the current trio of Winks, Eriksen and Sissoko. Good mix of physicality and quality on the ball, forward runs and defensive work rate. Winks has seen better form, but I expect him to return to form. Sissoko has improved massively and his limitations are less obvious/damaging with the quality Eriksen and Winks bring.

Quite happy with that line-up regardless of who returns from injury.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Opinions, as you say.

Sissokos name is on the teamsheet simply because there are no alternatives. With a full compliment Id be surprised if he wasnt relegated back to bit part player.

I've been hearing that since the beginning of the season yet Poch has continued to pick the Frenchman, even when he had other options.

I guess that it has been put forward solely on the basis of an unbiased assessment...

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Oh, Nayim, come on man!

...I'm not sure where or why Spurs fans have seemed to sour on Winks a bit. He was our Winksiesta right? Where's that gone? Obviously he's come off a serious injury and has had to get right back into the mental space, and pick up the form again. He's playing a lot of games now and we're winning a lot of games. He'll be fine. I'm sure playing with Sissoko does mean he has more defensive responsibility than when he plays with Dier, but that shouldn't mean people think less of him.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Oh, Nayim, come on man!

...I'm not sure where or why Spurs fans have seemed to sour on Winks a bit. He was our Winksiesta right? Where's that gone? Obviously he's come off a serious injury and has had to get right back into the mental space, and pick up the form again. He's playing a lot of games now and we're winning a lot of games. He'll be fine. I'm sure playing with Sissoko does mean he has more defensive responsibility than when he plays with Dier, but that shouldn't mean people think less of him.

Come on what? All I said was I dont think they are suited together.

Forced to, I explain I dont think Sissoko is the second coming and its costing Winks who would otherwise be played otherwise.

I see none of this as controversial. And now that very can of worms I wanted to avoid is being blown up in the Winks thread because people cant hear a word said against St Sissoko of Freundville.

I see there are responses, and Im not answering them because this isnt the place for it.

 

[Robspur12]

giving his full back protection against the ball into the channel and also more likely to be able to break through the first line of the opposition's packed defence with a direct run.

That is a succinct, unbiased appraisal of what Sissoko is currently bringing to the team. I am still unclear what Nayim is seeing through his personal scouting reports