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Southern Rail

Discussion in 'Randomination' started by Grays_1890, 15 Nov 2016.

  1. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    Absolutely, supply and demand.

    If you don't have any rare or valuable skills, why should you demand a high wage?

    That analogy doesn't work, because neither poker player has to place their bet.

    In the job market, the employer has to have that role filled, otherwise they wouldn't be advertising for it, and the applicant clearly needs a job. Walking away without an agreement is no good for either of them.

    I'm not inclined to reward stupidity or ignorance and neither should any valid system.

    I'm not sure what world you're imagining where employers are interviewing or advertising for roles that they don't need to fill. If they don't fill those roles, the work doesn't get done.

    All unions do is put a finger on what was a balanced scale.

    That has no effect on the price of labour in an unsullied market. Employees will do what they can to benefit them, remember.

    There are no economies anything like mine because governments always meddle. It's in the nature of those who aim for public office to do something - often doing anything (even something bad) seems preferable to them than just allowing the forces to do their work.

    And there's more chance of me seeing Jesus tugging off Muhammed on a unicorn riding through Narnia than there is of finding a British trade union that tries to keep wage inflation down. Whilst the German trades union model isn't entirely as idyllic as the picture you paint, they're far, far better than British ones. The main reason IMO being the people that run them. German trades union are run by middle class businessmen who are capable of coherent speech and acting like gentlemen. They can sit at a boardroom table and discuss, intelligently, the points in hand and come to reasonable agreements. Contrast that with violent, angry, working class heroes in this country who often would rather spit at a man in a suit than negotiate money from him.
     
  2. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Young-Pyo Lee

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    If market forces are as strong as you seem to believe would you not expect at least one country to have a completely "free economy" as they would have a competitive advantage over all others? I would suggest that the fact there isn't one (like pure communism) means it is not achievable in practice due to human nature, either the big companies get too much power and then introduce anti competitive practices or the people revolt. With the absence of a pure example you can only look at those that aspire or are close to the ideal to make judgments of the success in real life. Unless you can suggest otherwise this would be the southern States in the US which I would not want to use a template for a successful society or even economy.

    "And there's more chance of me seeing Jesus tugging off Muhammed on a unicorn riding through Narnia than there is of finding a British Companythat tries to keep wage inflation down. Whilst the German trades union model isn't entirely as idyllic as the picture you paint, they're far, far better than British ones. The main reason IMO being the people that run them. German trades union are run by middle class businessmen who are capable of coherent speech and acting like gentlemen. They can sit at a boardroom table and discuss, intelligently, the points in hand and come to reasonable agreements. Contrast that with violent, angry, working class heroes in this country who often would rather spit at a man in a suit than negotiate money from him." - ditto with a British company treating their workers with the same respect - takes two to tango.
     
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  3. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    The point of using market forces is that you can't have a "nearly" free market - that just doesn't work. Any external influence will always tip the scales. You also can't look at a state that has good market-led pricing but has to pay into a federal fund as a possible example. If the entire US used market forces for prices then I think you'd see a different result.

    There are plenty of British companies that treat their employees with respect, and they're always at the top of satisfaction and desirability surveys. Those companies are more difficult to get jobs in than those that don't - as predicted by the free market model. Every employer with half a brain knows that happy and settled employees are better for business, and nobody goes out to hurt employees just for the fun of it. If trades union leaders could understand that (probably needs reducing to fewer syllables and maybe a couple of pictures) then maybe negotiations could start on a better footing. Trades unions, on the other hand, have to justify their existence - if there are no disagreements over employment, why pay subs?
     
  4. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Young-Pyo Lee

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    "every employer with half a brain knows that happy and settled employees are better for business, and nobody goes out to hurt employees just for the fun of it. " how do you explain large employers who treat their workers like dirt - (sports direct for example but there really are loads of poor employers at all levels) They go out to hurt employees not for the fun of it but because they can make larger profits and they can, Areas with strong unions however seem to have better working practices.

    To say that Trade unions create problems is manipulating the situation to suit your argument. If companies treated their employees fairly there would be no need for trade unions - why would pay subs?

    your starting point that the best system is completely free market leads to conclusions - If this was really the best system I still stand that at least one country would be using it as per businesses there would be a competitive advantage.
     
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  5. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    Half a brain/Mike Ashley ;)

    Seriously though, I've never been in a Sports Direct but I imagine that they are fairly unpleasant places to be, made all the more unpleasant by staff that don't want to be there. They are losing a competitive edge by not providing a better service.

    The minimum wage also means that competitors who treat their staff really well should be able to lower wages but retain staff. That would give them a huge edge in the market and work heavily against Sports Direct.

    If companies treat their staff unfairly, their staff should get another job.

    I've yet to see a single government that can keep their noses out of other people's business. It's the nature of government/leaders in general - they can't bear to leave things alone.
     
  6. r-u-s-x01

    r-u-s-x01 Adel Taarabt

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    ]Half a brain/Mike Ashley ;)

    Seriously though, I've never been in a Sports Direct but I imagine that they are fairly unpleasant places to be, made all the more unpleasant by staff that don't want to be there. They are losing a competitive edge by not providing a better service.



    The minimum wage also means that competitors who treat their staff really well should be able to lower wages but retain staff. That would give them a huge edge in the market and work heavily against Sports Direct.


    If companies treat their staff unfairly, their staff should get another job......




    Or unionise and force better working conditions, also the added benefit of keep paying the bills and the next person doesn't have to have a bricky job, I prefer this solution.



    I've yet to see a single government that can keep their noses out of other people's business. It's the nature of government/leaders in general - they can't bear to leave things alone....




    So it's not a realistic solution, us lefties realise that it's human nature that communism can never work so largely won't offer it as a solution. I would say likewise the fee market you champion, may as well suggest superman fixes things as it's just as likely to happen.
     
    Last edited: 26 Nov 2016
  7. Gilzeantoscore

    Gilzeantoscore Dean Austin

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    Every single advantage of note currently enjoyed by British workers was won through the hard work and sacrifice of unionist going right back to the Tolpuddle Martyrs. Scratch an anti unionist and find a hypocrite, because they all enjoy these hard won benefits as free riders, who refuse to pay their way. Never seen one of these two bob capos ever donate conditions and wages back though. They all seem happy to scab on unionists though. Not people I'd ever have anything to do with.
     
    Last edited: 26 Nov 2016
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  8. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    If that were the case, then wouldn't the decline of unions have coincided with a decrease in working conditions?

    Unions are all but dead in this country and will hopefully be gone for good in the next 10 years. Yet working conditions have continued to improve.
     
  9. Gilzeantoscore

    Gilzeantoscore Dean Austin

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    There's no 'if that were the case' about it. It's a fact. More Scara Double Think, in that in one breathe he says unions are dead, but the way he goes on about them you would think they were running the nation. Make your mind up? Yeah working conditions have improved. If you say so. Ha, ha
     
  10. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    You can't just claim a statement as a fact. I could just as easily say that all union staff fudge goats. Fact.
     
  11. Gilzeantoscore

    Gilzeantoscore Dean Austin

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    It isn't a statement, it's part of the historical record, and your right wing dogma is never going to alter that, despite your constant homage to the propaganda techniques of 1984.
     
  12. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    No, what you have is some very weak correlation with no evidence or even string reasoning as to why or how that correlation should be considered causation.

    Worse than that, the correlation is only there until the mid-80s, at which point there is reverse correlation between union numbers and working conditions.
     
  13. Gilzeantoscore

    Gilzeantoscore Dean Austin

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    Here we go, more Double Think. if the unions have been so in-effectual, why do you persist in labelling them as the devil incarnate and a threat to your precious so called 'free market.' Make up your mind!
     
  14. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    Because they threaten the existence of businesses and stand in the way (often literally) of progress with their unreasonable demands.

    Sent from my SM-G925F using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
     
  15. Gilzeantoscore

    Gilzeantoscore Dean Austin

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    How can that be when you constantly refer to them as being weak and irrelevant? According to you, they have had no impact on worker's pay and conditions, yet at the same time you claim that they are a massive threat to business...Double Think...welcome to Air Strip One.
     
  16. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    Unions are very good at fudging things up for businesses and the general public.

    That's not the same as improving employee conditions - something unions (and apparently you) have repeatedly failed to grasp.
     
  17. Gilzeantoscore

    Gilzeantoscore Dean Austin

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    But, according to you they are irrelevant and impotent. Your simultaneous holding of mutually exclusive ideas exposes you for the un-thinking propagandist you are....come on admit it. :D
     
  18. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    They are irrelevant to employee/employer relations - if anything, they are more of a hindrance than a help.

    As shown by regular rail delays, they are not impotent, they are just not required in this century.
     
  19. r-u-s-x

    r-u-s-x Young-Pyo Lee

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    am looking on and wondering if what was successful with Dr's will be successful here with a more militant Union. It does appear from the outside that Govia are trying to mandate rather than negotiate.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-38129978

    I can only see the Government / Govia winning this in the long run, plenty of pain in the meantime.
     
  20. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    They have a majority in government. If they have to put through legislation that further restricts the ability of unions to hold us all to ransom, they will.

    There is no way this can end well for the union, but that's not what they want. Sticking it to the suits for 5 minutes is far more important.
     

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