Quacks & Pseudoscience

[milo]

That's the one that really concerns me.

If a doctor has essentially washed his hands of the problem, then she will be seeing a charlatan until she is better.

I wonder how many acupuncturists have ever told a patient "Your back problems are cured, no need to come back"?

If she is not signed off by a doctor, then you do not have to pay her, it would be an unauthorised absence from work.

It is possible that her GP could have referred her to an acupuncturist. She could have an ill informed GP or one who is knowingly sending her for a sham treatment to keep her quiet.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Sorry but that is just a nonsense statement, yes chiropractic does not work for all but it is a very well respected form of treatment. My wife is a chiropator and you would not believe the amount of people who's lives have been changed for the better due to her help. It's simple really she help peoples body to heal them self's by making sure all the parts are in the correct place.

Yep My one has saved my life at times, I remember one occasion I could barely bend down to lift the toilet seat up so had to lean on the wall and lower myself down to lift the seat. When I see mine she uses muscle massage to realign me and then when it is needed she does an adjustment. If stretches and exercises help to keep your back strong then it stands to reason that massaging and adjusting the line of your back into place would help.

With me it is my lower back and each time I have gone there she has released the tension on those points on the back and then she moves it back into place it will be sore for a few days but I can feel my back is straighter, the key then is to use exercises to keep it in place, the "superman" works best for me and also do moves to strengthen my core.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

If she is not signed off by a doctor, then you do not have to pay her, it would be an unauthorised absence from work.

It is possible that her GP could have referred her to an acupuncturist. She could have an ill informed GP or one who is knowingly sending her for a sham treatment to keep her quiet.

There needs to be an unlike button on this site, i expected better of you my usually enlightened friend.

 

[scaramanga]

Sorry but that is just a nonsense statement, yes chiropractic does not work for all but it is a very well respected form of treatment.

Respected? Yes. Effective? The evidence says otherwise.

My wife is a chiropator and you would not believe the amount of people who's lives have been changed for the better due to her help.

I've written a few times here about how incredible the placebo effect is. It's a wonder in itself. Unfortunately, the evidence says that that's also the power of chiropractcy (is that the word for it?)

There's some loose studies that show a slight improvement for very specific types of lower back pain, but generally massage and/or rest show an equal effect.

It's simple really she help peoples body to heal them self's by making sure all the parts are in the correct place.

That's not science. Like I said, the placebo effect is a great thing and shouldn't be overlooked, but you do have to weigh costs vs benefits.

Unfortunately, as Milo said, it can be very dangerous. Especially as chiropractors have no medical training. See below for a little more info
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/chiropractic/

Please note, I'm not suggesting all chiropractors are intentional and deceiving quack's. Most of them have been trained in good faith by people they believe to be knowledgeable experts in a field they believe has real effects.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Sorry but that is just a nonsense statement, yes chiropractic does not work for all but it is a very well respected form of treatment. My wife is a chiropator and you would not believe the amount of people who's lives have been changed for the better due to her help. It's simple really she help peoples body to heal them self's by making sure all the parts are in the correct place.

The only person that can heal their body is themselves (in this instance). Chiropractors can make adjustments and align BUT the powerful parts of the body are your muscles and tendons and they will pull you back out of alignment again, hence the repeated visits to the chiro.

It is these that require the work (as acknowledged by chich), preferably before issues arise. Regular stretching, core strength work, yoga, pilates, foam roller, massage can all help. (especially as we get older).

Our misalignment's (tilted/twisted pelvis, curved back,hunched shoulders etc) didnt happen overnight so no one should expect a visit to a chiro/osteo/acupunct to be a silver bullet. But they do. You have to work at this sh*t.

 

[scaramanga]

The only person that can heal their body is themselves (in this instance).

And doctors, don't forget doctors.

They're really good at healing people - it's kinda what they do.

Chiropractors can make adjustments and align BUT the powerful parts of the body are your muscles and tendons and they will pull you back out of alignment again, hence the repeated visits to the chiro.

Align what? Are we talking dislocations here? Anything that can show up on an xray?

It is these that require the work (as acknowledged by chich), preferably before issues arise. Regular stretching, core strength work, yoga, pilates, foam roller, massage can all help. (especially as we get older).

Or just exercise. Just exercise, eating a reasonable diet and having a mildly active lifestyle will be just fine. No need to bring woo like yoga into it. let's just call it what is is - stretching with some made up mystical nonsense.

Don't wast your money on foam rollers either - they're flimflam.

Our misalignment's (tilted/twisted pelvis, curved back,hunched shoulders etc) didnt happen overnight so no one should expect a visit to a chiro/osteo/acupunct to be a silver bullet. But they do. You have to work at this sh*t.

Are these real misalignments from actual injuries or something specifically measurable by anyone other than woo merchants?

Let's remind ourselves that chiropracters and osteopaths have yet to prove themselves better than simple rest/exercise, and acupuncturists have shown precisely the same benefit in double-blinded trials as people who know nothing about acupuncture randomly sticking needles into people.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

And doctors, don't forget doctors.

They're really good at healing people - it's kinda what they do.

'In this instance'

Align what? Are we talking dislocations here? Anything that can show up on an xray?

Align the skeleton into its perfect form. No not dislocations. Visible to someone by naked eye or using simple measuring.(this probably goes on at tottenham all the time)

As i said previously it is the muscles and tendons that require the work to really make a change for the better. And thats why i would never use a chiro/osteo/acupun, not because it doesn't work but imo it is tackling the problem from the wrong end. It's about sorting the problem out for good not temporary relief.

Or just exercise. Just exercise, eating a reasonable diet and having a mildly active lifestyle will be just fine. No need to bring woo like yoga into it. let's just call it what is is - stretching with some made up mystical nonsense.

Don't wast your money on foam rollers either - they're hogwash.

Agreed with the first bit, thats a great start and possibly all you need is everything else is rosy.

Some people need help with whats going on in their head and yoga can help them with that as well (along with other techniques....some woo some not)

Foam rollers are great (Myofascial Release), and really just a poor mans massage (we cant all have the massage girls lined up 5 times a week)

Are these real misalignments from actual injuries or something specifically measurable by anyone other than woo merchants?


Let's remind ourselves that chiropracters and osteopaths have yet to prove themselves better than simple rest/exercise, and acupuncturists have shown precisely the same benefit in double-blinded trials as people who know nothing about acupuncture randomly sticking needles into people.

They could be a legacy of a previous injury (especially if healed incorrectly) but also from repetitive work, sitting like a donkey all day etc.

Generally it is the muscles that have pulled you out of alignment and that is caused by muscle tightness, imbalance, scarring, adhesions.....not all caused by physical means but also psychological via the stress (not you of course), anxiety, tension from the brick we all carry round with us every day.

Muscle imbalance can be measured by a physio with quality equipment (eg hotspur way), we probably all have some imbalance because we are all left or right dominant. The rest can all be worked on by yourself.

 

[scaramanga]

'In this instance'

In all instances, no?

If there exists a cure/treatment/medicine to fix the problem, then it is prescribed by doctors.

The other stuff is all prefaced with the word "Alternative"

Align the skeleton into its perfect form.

Is there a "perfect" form for a skeleton? My understanding of anthropology is that people are far too varied to describe anything as perfect.

No not dislocations. Visible to someone by naked eye or using simple measuring.(this probably goes on at tottenham all the time)

Ah, OK.

So alignments that can only be understood/measured by the only people that can fix said problems? These people being continually unable to reject the null hypothesis, despite trying for over a century but are doing perfectly well at coming up with a pricing strategy for their treatments......

Doesn't that ring some alarm bells for you?

As i said previously it is the muscles and tendons that require the work to really make a change for the better. And thats why i would never use a chiro/osteo/acupun, not because it doesn't work but imo it is tackling the problem from the wrong end. It's about sorting the problem out for good not temporary relief.

The real issue is that it's not tackling the problem at all. I suppose they could work in a case of hypochondria, as the effect is all mental anyway.

Some people need help with whats going on in their head and yoga can help them with that as well (along with other techniques....some woo some not)

Not in any way that's measurably distinct from simple relaxation or other stress-relieving methods that don't require woo. (In other words, it's just stretching and relaxing - you don't need to pay a yoga quack to do that).

Foam rollers are great (Myofascial Release), and really just a poor mans massage (we cant all have the massage girls lined up 5 times a week)

It might surprise you to hear it given my stance on quackery that I go for massages every other week or so. Not because I believe there's anything they do that's beneficial or special, simply because it's relaxing and I am not one who is good at relaxing. There is a lot to be said for the mental wellbeing (with slight effects on the physical) of being relaxed in general, and it's certainly not nice to be stressed all the time.

If you use foam rollers because it feels nice and is relaxing, great. They're not doing anything physically though.

They could be a legacy of a previous injury (especially if healed incorrectly) but also from repetitive work, sitting like a donkey all day etc.

Generally it is the muscles that have pulled you out of alignment and that is caused by muscle tightness, imbalance, scarring, adhesions.....not all caused by physical means but also psychological via the stress (not you of course), anxiety, tension from the brick we all carry round with us every day.

Muscle imbalance can be measured by a physio with quality equipment (eg hotspur way), we probably all have some imbalance because we are all left or right dominant. The rest can all be worked on by yourself.

What is this alignment you keep talking about?

Muscles get stronger from use. If you are "unaligned" the opposite muscles will have to work harder to compensate and will therefore increase in strength and "realign" your body. The equilibrium of the body is not something that we need to pay a woo merchant to arrange, it's something our bodies have evolved to do themselves over millennia.

 

[AuroRaman]

What is 'woo'?

 

[scaramanga]

What is 'woo'?

It's the unsubstantiated mystical flimflam that turns stretching into yoga, chilling into meditating, hoping into praying, thinking into telekinesis, etc.

 

[AuroRaman]

It's the unsubstantiated mystical hogwash that turns stretching into yoga, chilling into meditating, hoping into praying, thinking into telekinesis, etc.

Ah ok, thank you!

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Most of what i talk about here is anatomy and physiology not woo or pseudoscience (or whatever you've tagged it this week).

No alarm bells are ringing in regards chiro/osteo/acupunc as i never (and have no intention to) use one for the reasons already given. So never give them much thought.

Most things are horses for courses and as you say if it works (for that person) then it's all good.

So if your lady comes back Monday doing a crab like yoga pose, either be thankful its 'worked' for her or eye her with suspicion that she was bullsh*tting in the first place and get a scouser in to take her place

 

[scaramanga]

Most of what i talk about here is anatomy and physiology not woo or pseudoscience (or whatever you've tagged it this week).

But it's not science and it's absolutely not medicine (or proper treatment in any way).

If it was, practitioners would be able to separate its effect from that of a similarly administered placebo and they never once have.

No alarm bells are ringing in regards chiro/osteo/acupunc as i never (and have no intention to) use one for the reasons already given. So never give them much thought.

Most things are horses for courses and as you say if it works (for that person) then it's all good.

My (potential) profits are paying sick pay to someone who might be better sooner if given proper treatment. All of our taxes (for those unfortunate enough to live in the UK) get partially wasted on this nonsense. Plenty of people are also fooled into spending valuable money on this nonsense as well as being steered away from real treatments that may actually help.

Unfortunately the playing field isn't level. I'm lucky (or hard-working) enough to be able to research and understand the claims made by these practitioners. They're incredibly litigious (especially chiropractors) and do whatever they can to silence the publication of any evidence contrary to their unsubstantiated claims (see Ben Goldacre*).

They intentionally use sciency-sounding language (similar to hair/makeup adverts) in an attempt to fool the layman into thinking that what they're talking about has some actual basis. I know some very intelligent people with good reasoning skills who believed in all of this until I pointed them to the actual hard evidence that shows no effect. Again, I'm not blaming all practitioners, many I'm sure are just repeating what they were taught by other people who probably believe it too.

This affects all of us in at least a minor way (increased taxes, lower general health of the populations) and probably in more major ones too (moral imperative to step in when one sees people being taken advantage of).

So if your lady comes back Monday doing a crab like yoga pose, either be thankful its 'worked' for her or eye her with suspicion that she was bullsh*tting in the first place and get a scouser in to take her place

The savings in wages when employing a scouser (you can still pay them in shell suits, right?) would be outweighed by the cost of having to glue/chain everything down!

* EDIT:
I think it's Simon Singh I'm thinking of, rather than Ben Goldacre. That's not to say Ben hasn't run afoul of them either though.

 

[Seedy Ron]

What's the difference between chiropractic and osteopathy? (Is that the right word, chiropractic?)

That's not the lead in for a joke btw. Genuine question. I must admit before Scara started this thread I would've assumed, having never required one, that chiro at least was a genuine thing, certainly more so than becoming a pin cushion. I've always assumed it was something like physiotherapy really.

 

[scaramanga]

What's the difference between chiropractic and osteopathy? (Is that the right word, chiropractic?)

That's not the lead in for a joke btw. Genuine question. I must admit before Scara started this thread I would've assumed, having never required one, that chiro at least was a genuine thing, certainly more so than becoming a pin cushion. I've always assumed it was something like physiotherapy really.

Chiro = Bones
Osteo = Muscles
Orthopaedic Surgeon/Specialist = Real doctor

 

[milo]

My understanding is that there are some studies that have show lower back manipulation to be beneficial for some forms back pain but that these studies have not followed chiropractic methods and have instead used massage.

Given the risks of damage to the spine and possible increased risk of strokes from chiropractic treatments. It puzzles this why anyone would choose this over a massage if they really want someone to play with their back.

What really concerns me about chiropractors though are the ones who make wild claims about it being a cure all or who do really dangerous stuff like cranial manipulation on children.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

What's the difference between chiropractic and osteopathy? (Is that the right word, chiropractic?)

That's not the lead in for a joke btw. Genuine question. I must admit before Scara started this thread I would've assumed, having never required one, that chiro at least was a genuine thing, certainly more so than becoming a pin cushion. I've always assumed it was something like physiotherapy really.

Chiro isn't actually recognised by the NHS. To be honest, until now I wasn't aware that acupuncture was either but it seems so.

I have a mate who is a physio who will tell you himself that 99% of the stuff they have you do is balls that they aren't actually sure works or not.

Although I will say that myofascial release (both by someone else and yourself by foam rolling or tennis ball) has been shown in clinic to reduce pain in certain conditions and recovery in athletic endeavours better than placebo. However, since 'pain' is subjective it's difficult to actually confirm 'better than placebo'

All I can say is that I train a fair bit and my recovery and DOMS is lessened when I foam roll.

 

[milo]

Chiro = Bones
Osteo = Muscles
Orthopaedic Surgeon/Specialist = Real doctor

Further reading if you are interested @Seedy Ron

http://www.chirobase.org/

http://edzardernst.com/2013/06/osteopathy-based-on-little-more-than-wishful-thinking/

and some info on acupuncture

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

 

[scaramanga]

Chiro isn't actually recognised by the NHS. To be honest, until now I wasn't aware that acupuncture was either but it seems so.

I have a mate who is a physio who will tell you himself that 99% of the stuff they have you do is balls that they aren't actually sure works or not.

Although I will say that myofascial release (both by someone else and yourself by foam rolling or tennis ball) has been shown in clinic to reduce pain in certain conditions and recovery in athletic endeavours better than placebo. However, since 'pain' is subjective it's difficult to actually confirm 'better than placebo'

All I can say is that I train a fair bit and my recovery and DOMS is lessened when I foam roll.

It surprised me that acupuncture was too. When I have some more time I'll take a look at how that ever got accepted and why it hasn't been reversed.

Do you have any links for the myofascial release stuff? I like to keep on top of this stuff because if this is proven to work, it will be the next thing the woo merchants attach themselves to in an attempt to garner credibility (see the word "quantum" in the hands of Deepak Chopra).

 

[glasgowspur]

I had a bad back and hip problem for years. Went to local doc, SFA doctor and as a last resort a chiro. All said the same thing, can see somethings wrong but don't know what.
Went to a TOP golf pro for lessons and spotted straight away something was wrong but again didn't know why or cause, was there for lessons, nothing to do with back.
Gave up and just accepted that was how it was going to be. Then one day I hurt my little toe and had to go to a podiatrist and she noticed the toe was turning under. She recommended a bio mechanic she knew so went there. He put me through all kinds of tests and said he knew what it was but it wasn't his field. He went next door and got his colleague who was a physio. He asked me some questions then said go to your dentist and get a gum shield, your grinding your teeth in your sleep and the tension from that is giving you the back pain.
Got gum shield and never looked back, if pardon the pun.
Point if the rather long story? Don't discount anything when it comes to your health. Human body is s complex and varied thing