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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

A algorithm is only as good as the data that goes in. If brick data goes in (as in this case) a brick result comes out. Note, it's working class students in state schools who will bear the brunt...again!

i dont think it was a data issue per se. the government tried to farcically normalise a-level scores using historical results not related to the individual students themselves.

using a football analogy, the government effectively tried to award the top 4 epl spots before the season had finished - ie. tpyically 2 teams from manchester finish in the top 4, so lets send two of the ucl spots to manchester.

as it turns out with the U-turn, everyone who genuinely deserved good grades will bear the brunt of the government incompetence.

we now have a situation where fans have decided where their teams should finish in the table, and its no surprise that we have more than 4 teams finishing in the ucl spots, and not enough ucl spots to go around...
 
i dont think it was a data issue per se. the government tried to farcically normalise a-level scores using historical results not related to the individual students themselves.

using a football analogy, the government effectively tried to award the top 4 epl spots before the season had finished - ie. tpyically 2 teams from manchester finish in the top 4, so lets send two of the ucl spots to manchester.

as it turns out with the U-turn, everyone who genuinely deserved good grades will bear the brunt of the government incompetence.

we now have a situation where fans have decided where their teams should finish in the table, and its no surprise that we have more than 4 teams finishing in the ucl spots, and not enough ucl spots to go around...

Is everyone getting the results predicted now? I haven't studied the news at length
 
Is everyone getting the results predicted now? I haven't studied the news at length

Teacher predictions will be used now. However as the algorithm-produced grades have already been announced, if the algorithm grade is higher than the teacher assessment grade, the algorithm grade will prevail.
 
Teacher predictions will be used now. However as the algorithm-produced grades have already been announced, if the algorithm grade is higher than the teacher assessment grade, the algorithm grade will prevail.

So the students get what they wanted all be it a week later than they should
 
So the students get what they wanted all be it a week later than they should

In terms of grades, yes, but there now seems to be a big mess up with universities, who had firmed-up places based on the algorithm grades or through clearing (as the government had said there would be no U-turn) and many courses are now full. Students who didn't get their choice university places might now find they do after all have good enough grades - so do the universities have to honour those offers? And how do they do that when courses are full? And if the government allows them to increase the number of students, where does the funding come from? (Those are general questions I've heard posed btw, not aimed at you to answer).
There was some stuff on the radio this morning about problems caused especially for medicine and similar courses where placements are part of the course, and for science subjects where lab space is critical.
I'm sure it will mostly shake out eventually, but the whole thing seems to have been terribly mismanaged.
 
In terms of grades, yes, but there now seems to be a big mess up with universities, who had firmed-up places based on the algorithm grades or through clearing (as the government had said there would be no U-turn) and many courses are now full. Students who didn't get their choice university places might now find they do after all have good enough grades - so do the universities have to honour those offers? And how do they do that when courses are full? And if the government allows them to increase the number of students, where does the funding come from? (Those are general questions I've heard posed btw, not aimed at you to answer).
There was some stuff on the radio this morning about problems caused especially for medicine and similar courses where placements are part of the course, and for science subjects where lab space is critical.
I'm sure it will mostly shake out eventually, but the whole thing seems to have been terribly mismanaged.

Wow complex

I think they should have stuck to their original decision if you can explain it. A U-turn looks silly and more harmful by looks of if
 
Wow complex

I think they should have stuck to their original decision if you can explain it. A U-turn looks silly and more harmful by looks of if

the problem was that the algorithmic method of normalisation was so bad that people were always going to protest against this. and then once you factor in that 40% of results were downgraded, the number of people protesting against this was going to be huge. if they really wanted to proceed with this method, they should have only reduced the grades of a limited number of students, and then the furore would have been small enough for the government to pass it off.

imo, this is akin to a football season that hasnt finished - therefore a-level grades/certifications should not have been awarded. just like how liverpool shouldnt have been awarded the title if we didnt play out the season. uni places should've been granted on the previous years' AS results, and GCSEs. it wouldve been unfortunate for some students, but it would've been "fair", and enabled unis to distribute their places/offers according to their capacity.
 
the problem was that the algorithmic method of normalisation was so bad that people were always going to protest against this. and then once you factor in that 40% of results were downgraded, the number of people protesting against this was going to be huge. if they really wanted to proceed with this method, they should have only reduced the grades of a limited number of students, and then the furore would have been small enough for the government to pass it off.

imo, this is akin to a football season that hasnt finished - therefore a-level grades/certifications should not have been awarded. just like how liverpool shouldnt have been awarded the title if we didnt play out the season. uni places should've been granted on the previous years' AS results, and GCSEs. it wouldve been unfortunate for some students, but it would've been "fair", and enabled unis to distribute their places/offers according to their capacity.

Thats why personally I think awards for work done is better than giving people work they haven't and then as said yesterday Universities and Companies adjust their sets accordingly due to fact this has been a pandemic year.

Not saying it's fair but I've lost 3/4 of my salary with furlough because there is a pandemic out there, that's had a huge strain on my life and my families including my kids and the prospect that the long term effect will be a change to how I work for years. But I turn on the TV and I see the world being decimated by this virus and you have to take into account the world's not the same as it was last year.

Everyone has a responsibility to accept that to a level in my opinion, including the academic world.
 
So what happens with people that defer uni for a year and potentially have inflated grades - doesn't that then disadvantage people sitting exams next year who will likely score lower and potentially lose a place to someone that may have benefitted this year? No ideal solution really but I can see this coming up next year.
 
Tory Defenders, Assemble!

Explain something to me, please, Dido Harding? I'll try to stick to facts:

1) Has no medical background
2) Was named head of NHS Track and Trace
3) Track and trace has been pretty poorly received by all accounts, no app (despite many nations having this and we spent millions on it - far more than Ireland who have a working app), and a failure to contact and trace around 25-33% of cases
4) Now in charge of NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF HEALTH PROTECTION (please see point 1 again at this point)
5) Her Husband (Tory MP) just happens to sit on the board of a 'think tank' that has mooted privatising the NHS and also scrapping Public Health England (which has now happened as she's now the head of NIHP per point 4)

And er... you're all ok with this? You see no issues whatsoever with any of the above?

As i mentioned earlier per Chris Grayling, poor performance and failure gets rewarded here, and we all suffer, Labour, Lib Dem, Tory voters, you still want the best people in charge. And i dont' see that.
 
Neither a Tory nor a Tory defender, but I can’t get too worked up about this. Public health isn’t really a medical job; it’s stats and policy. She’s had a fair few responsible roles, she’s not an idiot, and the fact is that this is a political job right now - if I worked in any of the outfits being rolled up, I’d want strong air cover from number 10 and to know that the boss was trusted by the cabal at the top.

T&T apps had proven themselves to be a bit of a red herring by the time the first attempts had failed, so not surprising that the idea was deprioritised. The only techy solution that really works is aggressive data-enabled contact tracing, using all the kit and kaboodle normally used to track serious villains. You can get away with that in some countries, less so here.

Does it matter what her husband does? She’s a Tory. Of course she mixes in circles where NHS marketisation isn’t taboo. If the job had gone to a bloke, would you be as interested in his wife’s views?
 
Neither a Tory nor a Tory defender, but I can’t get too worked up about this. Public health isn’t really a medical job; it’s stats and policy. She’s had a fair few responsible roles, she’s not an idiot, and the fact is that this is a political job right now - if I worked in any of the outfits being rolled up, I’d want strong air cover from number 10 and to know that the boss was trusted by the cabal at the top.

I'm no expert on these areas, i can only refer to people who have more knowledge on the subject than me.

The British Medical Association stated the new body must be “completely independent of political influence”. I think they're a fair bit closer to the issue than both of us. I also would disagree on the stats and policy part personally, you don't need someone with direct experience but at least knowledge. Very few times would you replace a CEO with someone completely bereft of experience in a similar field. When Tesco replaced their CEOs over last few years they took on people from big conglomerate brands like Walgreens or Unilever.

Ultimately the fact is, she's been given the job not because of experience but because she's a Tory peer. She is not the best qualified in the UK for that role but that doesn't matter when it comes to decision making with this government. It's who you know, not what you know
 
I'm no expert on these areas, i can only refer to people who have more knowledge on the subject than me.

The British Medical Association stated the new body must be “completely independent of political influence”. I think they're a fair bit closer to the issue than both of us. I also would disagree on the stats and policy part personally, you don't need someone with direct experience but at least knowledge. Very few times would you replace a CEO with someone completely bereft of experience in a similar field. When Tesco replaced their CEOs over last few years they took on people from big conglomerate brands like Walgreens or Unilever.

Ultimately the fact is, she's been given the job not because of experience but because she's a Tory peer. She is not the best qualified in the UK for that role but that doesn't matter when it comes to decision making with this government. It's who you know, not what you know

Cronyvirus continues to ravage the nation.
 
But the projections were submitted only because there were no exams to sit. So projections based on mock results and teachers' knowledge of their pupils ability, in order to to come to a final grade, with the projections being further assessed by exam boards.
The problem seems to be with the mechanism used to level out the results, which effectively ignores teacher projections in certain circumstances and which put too much onus on previous results at each school, meaning pupils who are above the average get pulled down, and then ones who achieve at the 'expected' average get pulled down further because of the bell-curve requirement.
This disproportionately impacts able pupils at previously mid to low-achieving schools.

I agree that it would be massively helpful if universities took a more flexible approach but there are no signs they are doing that (I have only heard of one in the news that has said they will give a place to everyone who had been offered a conditional place). As for employers, well if pupils are unable to get into university then many are unlikely to be in a position to have those conversations with the companies they aspire to work for. And with so many people potentially looking for work due to covid-related job losses, those leaving school with low A-Level grades will struggle even more, as there's a good chance they wouldn't make it past the first CV sift.

Right now there is no clear mechanism for appeals, because OfQual pulled their criteria and haven't been able to come up with an alternative. So no one knows how to appeal or on what grounds, in the meantime universities are going ahead with confirming placements anyway. And all this just 3 days before GCSE results come out, when it will be rinse and repeat because the same algorithm has been used.

The whole thing is a debacle.
And the pulling down was only necessary because teachers overgraded all the students.
 
And the fact teacher assessments are infuenced by personal relationship bias and the teachers ability. Not saying both happen wholesale but I imagine one teachers A is another's A+ and the student bond between teacher and student curries better marks than an independent exam.
I know someone who made their entire 6th form re mark their GCSE English resit papers.

The college usually gets 20-25% C or above, with 60%+ getting a D. This year, barely a single student got a D. C grades were through the roof.

You have 1 guess as to which grade resit teachers are graded on.
 
shows a weakness in the university entry system imo, it shouldn't be so reliant on actual grades, if you are prepared to offer someone a place based on years of prior performance and in person interviews, that place shouldn't go away if they have one bad day in an exam hall

you wouldn't court a potential employee for months then decide not to hire them because they had one bad interview

also, the system they used, requiring a ranking, is ridiculous
Not sure what the problem with exams results is. Exams demonstrate both applied knowledge and the ability to cope under pressure - a candidate is worthless without the ability to do both.
 
Not sure what the problem with exams results is. Exams demonstrate both applied knowledge and the ability to cope under pressure - a candidate is worthless without the ability to do both.

Weren’t you recently saying a degree - with its finale of examinations each year - was not of value, but vocational training - education often based on spending time on placement - is better? Now you’re saying candidates are “worthless” without taking exams.

I’m sure you have a rational explanation naturally. [emoji28]


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Weren’t you recently saying a degree - with its finale of examinations each year - was not valued, but vocational training - often based on spending time on a placement - is better? Now you’re saying candidates are “worthless” without taking exams.

I’m sure you have a rational explanation naturally. [emoji28]


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
I'm saying that weak degrees in weak subjects are worthless.

Candidates who study good degrees at good universities are also worthless if they cannot use applied knowledge and cope under pressure.
 
Not sure what the problem with exams results is. Exams demonstrate both applied knowledge and the ability to cope under pressure - a candidate is worthless without the ability to do both.

it’s not just about coping with pressure, there are countless things that can ruin your day, a migraine, a period, a transport system failure, bad weather

I once sat an exam having found out the day before my mother had been diagnosed with cancer, the universe will fudge with you relentlessly, it doesn’t need to be a one shot deal

also, there are loads of jobs where dealing with pressure isn’t relevant, where, in fact, pressure is a stop on creativity, not everything is a production line
 
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