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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Discussion in 'Randomination' started by SpurMeUp, 19 Feb 2019.

  1. Diamond Lights

    Diamond Lights Stephen Kelly

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  2. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    That the ISC hasn't or that nobody has?
     
  3. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    Interesting choice of phrase - have you ever considered working for the Mirror?

    Having initiative and investigating threats when they see them is not the same as "not doing what the government asks." I would expect all government departments to show initiative and to work without their every move having to be proscribed by the highest level of government. Unfortunately that appears to be too much to ask of many.
     
  4. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Ian Walker

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    I believe it was your good self who compared MI5 to teachers and miners not doing what the government asked.

    It should be clear that our government doesn't want too much attention on Russian involvement. Probably because it is a little too close to this regime - whether to Boris and donations from Oligarchs, Cummings who was working in Russia, or actors involved in Brexit. For example, Aaron Banks with his Russian spy wife, his meetings with the Russian Ambassador, and him spending more money than his companies have made on Brexit; making him the largest UK political doner ever. Where did the money come from? Leaked emails show Russia offered Banks gold mine share for peanuts. Why?

    If the government didn't have a problem with investigating Russian involvement, they wouldn't have shelved this report for a year. Why else would you?
     
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  5. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    Low impact, low priority would be my guess.
     
  6. Rorschach

    Rorschach Garth Crooks

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    M15 I presume.
     
  7. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    Then it makes sense to assume that there's nothing there to see.

    Our security services don't look where the government tells them to, they look for threats everywhere, investigate, then make recommendations to those in government.
     
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  8. Rorschach

    Rorschach Garth Crooks

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    You would think but apparently not in this case, is what the report stated. It's fairly straight forward.
     
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  9. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    Care to highlight the part that states that?
     
  10. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Paul Stalteri

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    There is a huge difference between what Joe public are told is happening and what is actually happening with the intelligence services. They wouldn’t publicly inform and therefore Inform Russia that they are investigating them.
     
    Last edited: 22 Jul 2020
  11. Rorschach

    Rorschach Garth Crooks

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    Nope. I listened to the press conference.
     
  12. monkeybarry

    monkeybarry John Lacy

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    Yes they do, they have mandatory frameworks within which they undertake their duties.
    I'm going to put it out there that national security frameworks are somewhere more explicit and have greater scrutiny than Ofsted.
     
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  13. Grays_1890

    Grays_1890 Paul Stalteri

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    I would say there is more flexibility based on the nature of the role. If your following a man for a day you can’t report back at every point of their movements as you don’t know what they are going to do and you certainly wouldn’t escalate that information above your unit of command, that’s why there are layers in any organisation.

    It’s an extreme example of course but the point is there will be a huge level of autonomy in any order and we will be monitoring Russia, Boris won’t be in charge of how and in some cases how far because there are experts to do that and the job is lineal, ongoing.

    Facts are we might not as some on here interpret, open a specific investigation on Russia because we do so every day of the week.

    It’s only or own egos to believe we need to know anymore than we know.
     
  14. P.D.

    P.D. Jermaine Jenas

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    That's not actually quite true, MI5 are able to determine the areas they investigate. GCHQ and MI6 also can but are a little more controlled.

    <blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">That’s relevant to MI6 and GCHQ but even then isn’t the complete answer. Also, as members of the ISC have pointed out, MI5 is able to self task, could have moved this up the agenda</p>&mdash; Mark Urban (@MarkUrban01) <a href="">July 21, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
     
  15. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    In which case I'll take from the BBC summary as it's both reasonably accurate and biased against the govt - so a good source for their defence.

    So at no point did anyone stop the security services from investigating, they simply saw it as low priority. Not surprising, considering how small any effect would likely be, even if the Russians had successfully done whatever it is people seem to think they did.

    The government are accused of not investigating, yet the intelligence agencies didn't see any threat so the govt would have had no reason to investigate.

    From the report itself:
    One can understand the lack of urgency in taking action based on such comments.
     
    Last edited: 22 Jul 2020
  16. scaramanga

    scaramanga Vivian Woodward Staff Member

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    Yet the government doesn't tell them where the threats are because they don't know where they are until the intelligence agencies find them.

    In order for the govt to have them focus on Russian bots tweeting, the intelligence agencies would need to have determined that was a threat and warned the govt. Given the ISC's somewhat partisan accusations, it appears that they either didn't find anything or considered what they found to not be a significant threat.
     
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  17. P.D.

    P.D. Jermaine Jenas

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    I'm not really a fan of moves towards fiscal union, taxes should be set by individual countries and I think shared debt is a slippery slope that will lead to more deals like this as well as a lot of bitterness between some countries.

    On Ireland in some ways people there have lost out, Varadkar lost his majority recently even though people praised his handling of Brexit and coronavirus because he pandered too hard to some of the US companies which led to huge pressures on infrastructure and a massive spike in house prices driving locals away from Dublin etc.

    They could always do what the UK and I believe France are doing and put in a digital services tax but I think it doesn't capture Apple.

    Basing 70% of it on population and unemployment, some of the EU countries (mainly Italy and Spain) have been in long term decline with weak economies and high levels of unemployment for a long time before this virus came along.
     
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  18. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Ian Walker

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    What are you on about? Of course MI5 can "self task". They don't need permission to get on with background work. But the notion that MI5 can ignore the government or, as in this case, potentially work against the democratically elected government of the day is a nonsense. If it were to investigate something the government does not want it to, it would have gone rogue. Some tweet is not going to change that reality. A government that hides a report for a year is not going to want to pursue further detail on Russian involvement, involvement that is potentially linked to this government. If you can't see that I am surprised.
     
    Last edited: 23 Jul 2020
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  19. SpurMeUp

    SpurMeUp Ian Walker

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    So when you flagged up the EU borrowing money and lending it to the EU as bad thing - something that is happening the world over at the moment - there wasn't actually anything wrong with it that you could identify. The only issue it transpires was your fears of something that has not occurred. That this lending money will somehow lead to fiscal union. But you have not outlined how. A baseless fear therefore?

    My previous point regarding Ireland and Apple, was highlighting how headlines on EU actions are often misrepresentation. People post things which seem to show the EU has stopped Ireland getting taxes back off Apple. But look at the detail and you can see the EU is trying to make Apple pay up.
     
    Last edited: 23 Jul 2020
  20. Gilzeantoscore

    Gilzeantoscore Dean Austin

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    Do you think that they informed Wilson, when he was being investigated?
     

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