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OMT * Tottenham Hotspur v Brighton *

thfcsteff said:
It was significant that we carved two chances and neither was taken. Bergwijn’s was a sitter, no arguments, but those will happen. Reggie’s? I am less forgiving. This is a move we work on time and time again, PEH did an excellent job of getting around his man to pull that ball back, yet Reggie again failed to either time his run or slide onto a ball that was a tap in. He continually misses these chances and they are mechanised in the sense that we work on that sort of creation. I think he needs to be dropped for Sess next week. There’s an argument for Sess on the right and Reggie keeps his place, but he HAS to make those chances count.
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Both could have done better perhaps. But we were second best as a team more or less throughout the game, that's the real issue. Create 2-3 more chances like that and we might end up taking one.

Thought we would get some counter attacking chances in this game. Brighton play with real ambition on the ball, but they really didn't make mistakes at all.

Also thought we would get some chances playing through their press, but we weren't quite good enough on the ball. Missing Doherty, but that can't be the only reason.

Bit of an off day all around. Think it's harsh to focus on individual situations where we nearly got there despite of this.
 
metalgear said:
Actually I'm not asking Dier to do much more than get into a position where he can switch play quickly. This means he needs to be brave enough to drop back momentarily so that he receives the ball from Romero facing front and has full view of the play ahead so he can put a ball up for Reggie or Son to chase.

Instead Dier looks oblivious to the entire play and opportunities, just concerned about keeping possession not starting attacks.

On the heat map Kane looked deep enough for me. The gap between Kane and the rest of the team is where Potter put a wall of players to stop Kulu and Bentancur from ticking and prevent Kane from getting the ball. Conversely their weak spot is they have many players pressing high.

Reggie and Son are best chasing the ball in front of them, we must find other ways to make the full use of their pace. At the moment I can see how Conte's hands are tied. But we need a CCB more like Toby for Conte's system to work. I'd rather lose Dier than Conte.
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Thought Dier was fine. Those balls over the top are inherently rare as teams will try their best to stop that from happening.

Brighton very effectively stopped us going through the centre, Bentancur, Kane and Hojbjerg found little space, time and joy.

We moved the ball reasonably well to wide areas. Where our approach play pretty much stopped.

Don't think this is on Dier. Who has been a very important part of our buildup play (particularly against higher press) improving massively.
 
braineclipse said:
Thought Dier was fine. Those balls over the top are inherently rare as teams will try their best to stop that from happening.

Brighton very effectively stopped us going through the centre, Bentancur, Kane and Hojbjerg found little space, time and joy.

We moved the ball reasonably well to wide areas. Where our approach play pretty much stopped.

Don't think this is on Dier. Who has been a very important part of our buildup play (particularly against higher press) improving massively.
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I may be overreaching but i think the heart of our problems start with the base of the spine. We have right now a pretty good talent in midfield and two great ones in attack ... we should be beating teams like brighton.

how then do we play conteball to beat a team like brighton? i mean surely something can be fixed... or are we saying that brighton deserves champions league football more than we do? Or do we swop all our players with Brighton's?

I rewatched the first half and there was no way that midfield was getting time to lift their heads up.
I also saw Royal starting many runs - as many as 5 times in the first 7 minutes but there was no supply.
The only one who had time to look up and start something was Dier. If he couldn't then there is no way for us to beat Potter's Brighton as they are now.
 
metalgear said:
I may be overreaching but i think the heart of our problems start with the base of the spine. We have right now a pretty good talent in midfield and two great ones in attack ... we should be beating teams like brighton.

how then do we play conteball to beat a team like brighton? i mean surely something can be fixed... or are we saying that brighton deserves champions league football more than we do? Or do we swop all our players with Brighton's?

I rewatched the first half and there was no way that midfield was getting time to lift their heads up.
I also saw Royal starting many runs - as many as 5 times in the first 7 minutes but there was no supply.
The only one who had time to look up and start something was Dier. If he couldn't then there is no way for us to beat Potter's Brighton as they are now.
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The wing backs are the problem not the CB’s. How someone can blame the CB for the lack of creativity is beyond me.
 
metalgear said:
I may be overreaching but i think the heart of our problems start with the base of the spine. We have right now a pretty good talent in midfield and two great ones in attack ... we should be beating teams like brighton.

how then do we play conteball to beat a team like brighton? i mean surely something can be fixed... or are we saying that brighton deserves champions league football more than we do? Or do we swop all our players with Brighton's?

I rewatched the first half and there was no way that midfield was getting time to lift their heads up.
I also saw Royal starting many runs - as many as 5 times in the first 7 minutes but there was no supply.
The only one who had time to look up and start something was Dier. If he couldn't then there is no way for us to beat Potter's Brighton as they are now.
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Brighton are, on their day, a very good team. They are where they are as they're nowhere near clinical and make quite a lot of mistakes. Against us they didn't make mistakes as much and scored a goal.

Enough has been said about our wing backs already, but mostly they're not good enough right now.
 
Potter is a smart cookie, it doesn't take much to study our (effective) patterns and set up to nullify them.

Make no mistake, this started the previous week at Villa. Play a mid block, to swarm the passing lanes/connections that get us moving forward. (Tbh I'm surprised it's taken so long, I've said for weeks the obvious one, getting it to Kane who's dropped of 10yds, has been staring opposition managers in the face for donkeys.)

At Villa we were deadly, how many chances versus how many scored? And Villas finishing was woeful in contrast.

This is a well known problem for Conte (all or nothing Juve heirachy talk about it), stop his automations and there's no plan B. His situation is helped with 1st class WBs, they add so much energy and a 4th and 5th attacker that needs to be dealt with. We don't have that (atm).

Perhaps the energy should have been better (midday ko's are brick) to force the situation but Potter just generally out thought Conte.

Saturday will be interesting as the Brentford manager is pretty smart as well.

I can't blame any of the players this week, they all looked poorish and that was because we couldn't function as a team, and that was because of Potter.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Potter is a smart cookie, it doesn't take much to study our (effective) patterns and set up to nullify them.

Make no mistake, this started the previous week at Villa. Play a mid block, to swarm the passing lanes/connections that get us moving forward. (Tbh I'm surprised it's taken so long, I've said for weeks the obvious one, getting it to Kane who's dropped of 10yds, has been staring opposition managers in the face for donkeys.)

At Villa we were deadly, how many chances versus how many scored? And Villas finishing was woeful in contrast.

This is a well known problem for Conte (all or nothing Juve heirachy talk about it), stop his automations and there's no plan B. His situation is helped with 1st class WBs, they add so much energy and a 4th and 5th attacker that needs to be dealt with. We don't have that (atm).

Perhaps the energy should have been better (midday ko's are brick) to force the situation but Potter just generally out thought Conte.

Saturday will be interesting as the Brentford manager is pretty smart as well.

I can't blame any of the players this week, they all looked poorish and that was because we couldn't function as a team, and that was because of Potter.
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No doubt Potter is a smart cookie. And I also agree that some of the same problems were clearly visible against Villa.

I'm not sure I would give as much credit to Potter in a Potter vs. Conte credit battle as you do. One of those days for me. We know we're short on quality at wing back, particularly with Doherty out. One or two other players not at their best and this is what we get.

In terms of chances it was a pretty close and low chance affair. Not taking anything away from Brighton, they played a really good game. But that's the nature of these things, good performance from them coupled with being clinical enough, us not at our best. The difference in quality isn't greater than that ending with a loss for us.
 
ricky2tricky4city said:
Potter is a smart cookie, it doesn't take much to study our (effective) patterns and set up to nullify them.

Make no mistake, this started the previous week at Villa. Play a mid block, to swarm the passing lanes/connections that get us moving forward. (Tbh I'm surprised it's taken so long, I've said for weeks the obvious one, getting it to Kane who's dropped of 10yds, has been staring opposition managers in the face for donkeys.)

At Villa we were deadly, how many chances versus how many scored? And Villas finishing was woeful in contrast.

This is a well known problem for Conte (all or nothing Juve heirachy talk about it), stop his automations and there's no plan B. His situation is helped with 1st class WBs, they add so much energy and a 4th and 5th attacker that needs to be dealt with. We don't have that (atm).

Perhaps the energy should have been better (midday ko's are brick) to force the situation but Potter just generally out thought Conte.

Saturday will be interesting as the Brentford manager is pretty smart as well.

I can't blame any of the players this week, they all looked poorish and that was because we couldn't function as a team, and that was because of Potter.
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Thats pretty much how I saw it. The signs are now there these past two games that managers are looking at our slow build up from the back, trying to draw a team on to us, and setting up to disrupt us - cutting off those passing lanes and letting our ineffective wing backs be the out ball. We have come a long way these past few weeks but the squad is still thin - and as we've all said a thousand times, the wing backs are dysfunctional.
 
braineclipse said:
No doubt Potter is a smart cookie. And I also agree that some of the same problems were clearly visible against Villa.

I'm not sure I would give as much credit to Potter in a Potter vs. Conte credit battle as you do. One of those days for me. We know we're short on quality at wing back, particularly with Doherty out. One or two other players not at their best and this is what we get.

In terms of chances it was a pretty close and low chance affair. Not taking anything away from Brighton, they played a really good game. But that's the nature of these things, good performance from them coupled with being clinical enough, us not at our best. The difference in quality isn't greater than that ending with a loss for us.
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I agree, it wasn't an issue of any specific player playing below standard. Our entire system was counter acted and we had no solution. Times like that we need to be able to try something different but I get that Conte is one to perfect his system rather than adapt it. Hopefully we have enough in us for the rest of the season.

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metalgear said:
those passmaps don't show the problem with supply. wingbacks are best chasing the ball.

The twitter one above shows Davies having more forward passes than Dier.

Brighton's game plan was to shut down and frustrate our right side. Dier could see that but kept passing it back into the fray.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1515324681179607052
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Looks like they are playing into a wall:)....which they were.

One thing that has been missing recently is the big switch of play over to the far WB. Left or right.
 
braineclipse said:
No doubt Potter is a smart cookie. And I also agree that some of the same problems were clearly visible against Villa.

I'm not sure I would give as much credit to Potter in a Potter vs. Conte credit battle as you do. One of those days for me. We know we're short on quality at wing back, particularly with Doherty out. One or two other players not at their best and this is what we get.

In terms of chances it was a pretty close and low chance affair. Not taking anything away from Brighton, they played a really good game. But that's the nature of these things, good performance from them coupled with being clinical enough, us not at our best. The difference in quality isn't greater than that ending with a loss for us.
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Obviously taking on the coaching role of stopping a team is easier to succeed in than the one looking for attacking success.

I think the Saints home game might be worth a rewatch to assess if there were patterns similar to Saturday.
 
Don't understand Contes post match comments at all. All his subs were basically like for like. He never tried to change the system ( to go more defensive) nor did he bring on more defensive orientated subs if his goal was to hang on for a point.

He seemed totally perplexed as to what to do. And therefore did the wrong thing by neither changing our system and tactics nor bringing on the right substitutes at the right time.

While the players were largely abject, I felt Conte was worse.
 
metalgear said:
those passmaps don't show the problem with supply. wingbacks are best chasing the ball.

The twitter one above shows Davies having more forward passes than Dier.

Brighton's game plan was to shut down and frustrate our right side. Dier could see that but kept passing it back into the fray.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1515324681179607052
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This is a programmed pattern of play which comes from the manager.
If Dier starts pinging ball into the deep left channel for Reggie to gallop onto, unless Conte has instructed it, it will be a harmless pass into touch.
It is equally why we didn't see something like Kane dropping into wide midfield spots in order to try and drag Brighton out of shape We obviously did not include it in our game plan.

Brighton absolutely shut down the right hand side, from Romero to Kulu and Romero-Bentancur-Kulu. We have a problem on the left in so much as the link between Davies and Reggie is simply not the same. So I don't disagree that Brighton wanted to force the bulk of possession deep into the feet of Dier and (to a lesser extent, Davies) but again, in order to release the kraken out there, Reggie will have needed instructions to push higher and bomb on...which only makes the gaps bigger if that ball isn't perfect and thus allows Brighton space to operate.

I have to further add, comparing Dier to VVD is a bit rich; who does VVD have running onto those passes? It isn't Reggie and Royal, it is the two best attacking FBs arguably in world football.

Still, if Eric Dier is the problem for you, then what can I say, enjoy/endure mate.
 
Pirate55 said:
Don't understand Contes post match comments at all. All his subs were basically like for like. He never tried to change the system ( to go more defensive) nor did he bring on more defensive orientated subs if his goal was to hang on for a point.

He seemed totally perplexed as to what to do. And therefore did the wrong thing by neither changing our system and tactics nor bringing on the right substitutes at the right time.

While the players were largely abject, I felt Conte was worse.
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I felt he was still a bit 'off' TBH. Lower energy. I have to think that being unable to to take proper training cannot have helped him or us one bit.
 
thfcsteff said:
This is a programmed pattern of play which comes from the manager.
If Dier starts pinging ball into the deep left channel for Reggie to gallop onto, unless Conte has instructed it, it will be a harmless pass into touch.
It is equally why we didn't see something like Kane dropping into wide midfield spots in order to try and drag Brighton out of shape We obviously did not include it in our game plan.

Brighton absolutely shut down the right hand side, from Romero to Kulu and Romero-Bentancur-Kulu. We have a problem on the left in so much as the link between Davies and Reggie is simply not the same. So I don't disagree that Brighton wanted to force the bulk of possession deep into the feet of Dier and (to a lesser extent, Davies) but again, in order to release the kraken out there, Reggie will have needed instructions to push higher and bomb on...which only makes the gaps bigger if that ball isn't perfect and thus allows Brighton space to operate.

I have to further add, comparing Dier to VVD is a bit rich; who does VVD have running onto those passes? It isn't Reggie and Royal, it is the two best attacking FBs arguably in world football.

Still, if Eric Dier is the problem for you, then what can I say, enjoy/endure mate.
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Rewatch the first 10 minutes and you will see Royal up there initiating at least five runs into the channel. Surely in the first 10 mintues this is the coach's instructions.

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I counted Royal making 5 runs like htat in the first 10 minutes. No one in midfield had the time to look up. But this was one of a few where Dier had time but never once looked up to try.

Improve on wingbacks? The type that can excel without supply? Heard they cost as much as a VVD these days. If we're strapped for cash I'd make do with Royal and Sess and get better CBs who can fully maximise their role in the team.
 
Pirate55 said:
Don't understand Contes post match comments at all. All his subs were basically like for like. He never tried to change the system ( to go more defensive) nor did he bring on more defensive orientated subs if his goal was to hang on for a point.

He seemed totally perplexed as to what to do. And therefore did the wrong thing by neither changing our system and tactics nor bringing on the right substitutes at the right time.

While the players were largely abject, I felt Conte was worse.
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Conte is still embedding his philosophy with the players including subs, so sometimes that takes priority over other options. That means that he hopes that the players can play within his system and still find a way to win, instead of clouding performance with the merits of different formations/systems etc. He is still finding out about his players too and we trust he has seen something new in this Brighton game.

But agree that training away from the players could have affected preparations knowing how hands-on and personal he is.
 
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