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ENIC

I think there is a stimulating comparison to be made with Brighton.

1. Most fans, probably yourself too, want Levy away from the football side. Yet Bloom is a numbers man who’s no doubt highly involved in transfers.

2. There was a period where other teams tried to emulate our transfer business. We’d signed Modric, Berbatov, Bale amongst others.

3. I think there is a strong argument that where we went wrong is moving away from the model where Spurs senior management were more involved and accountable on the footballing side.

Let’s no forgot fans love to capture a moment and extrapolate it as everything - when in reality things will shift each month. That said, the reason Brighton are excelling is because of their shrewd transfer business. We did what all fans were screaming for - moving the footballing side away from Levy. Yet we’ve possibly had one of the worse returns from our transfer investment with the Manager of Football model this year. Forster being lauded by Ali Good as our most successful signing when we spent in excess of 100m.

How we spent so much and neglected to strengthen the defence is worthy of investigation.

What do we take from this? We need stability. And I personally would welcome DLs greater involvement in the footballing side. History shows us that when he didn’t have the stadium project we behaved far more like Brighton and uncovered more gems. Times have changed and no doubt we need a dedicated footballing team. But as Brighton show, having an owner who cares deeply about transfers is critical. So much of success is ducted by who you sign, I would welcome greater input from levy into this critical area. The club has improve this area with the owner taking charge. That is how Brighton do it, and we have a past history of success in a similar mould. Now we have to update this model to be compatible with our current reality.

Eh? We've done well because DL took charge of transfer strategy??
Have you forgotten the how and whys we didn't sign Mane or Wijnaldum but instead spent similar money on Sissoko and N'Koudou instead?
What about spending a lot of last summer signing Djed Spence (a signing Levy specifically pursued himself with Conte's blessing)?

Not trying to say all 'Levy buys' are duds etc, but what makes you think MORE involvement from Levy is what the club needs at this point?
And does that mean getting a DOF is also pointless?
 
Eh? We've done well because DL took charge of transfer strategy??
Have you forgotten the how and whys we didn't sign Mane or Wijnaldum but instead spent similar money on Sissoko and N'Koudou instead?
What about spending a lot of last summer signing Djed Spence (a signing Levy specifically pursued himself with Conte's blessing)?

Not trying to say all 'Levy buys' are duds etc, but what makes you think MORE involvement from Levy is what the club needs at this point?
And does that mean getting a DOF is also pointless?

Re-read my post - rather than me repeat myself!

A DOF isn’t pointless at all. Levy also pioneered this model in England let’s not forget. Transfers are so critical to success, you need dedicated people focused on signings as well as the senior management. To excel - and how Brighton have done well - is to ‘beat the system’ on transfers and buy the best players early. As we did once upon a time.
 
Re-read my post - rather than me repeat myself!

A DOF isn’t pointless at all. Levy also pioneered this model in England let’s not forget. Transfers are so critical to success, you need dedicated people focused on signings as well as the senior management. To excel - and how Brighton have done well - is to ‘beat the system’ on transfers and buy the best players early. As we did once upon a time.

I did read what you wrote and question why you'd want Levy to have GREATER involvement in our transfers given all the evidence that actually he often has too much influence.
Yes, we need to get better at identifying talent early but i don't buy the idea that to do that we need MORE involvement from Levy.
 
I did read what you wrote and question why you'd want Levy to have GREATER involvement in our transfers given all the evidence that actually he often has too much influence.
Yes, we need to get better at identifying talent early but i don't buy the idea that to do that we need MORE involvement from Levy.
Care to cite this evidence that Levy has too much involvement?

Ive put forward evidence that Brightons owner being central to transfers pays in results. And that Spurs was lauded as the team to emulate when Levy took a similar role to Bloom getting in early with talented players.

An employee will do their job. And if they fail move onto the next job. They might earn more in bonuses if they do well, but they don’t care as much as the business owner. These owners are often highly able, highly critical, analytical people. Yet with Levys past record of success, and with our current record of failure with Levy distanced from transfers, you would like us to keep doing what we’re doing.

Is it my argument or yours that is illogical?
 
I did read what you wrote and question why you'd want Levy to have GREATER involvement in our transfers given all the evidence that actually he often has too much influence.
Yes, we need to get better at identifying talent early but i don't buy the idea that to do that we need MORE involvement from Levy.

I’m intrigued as to what evidence there is of him having what level of involvement

there was the guy on talksport who made his comments.. ex employee.. and I posted that he was either mistaken or made things up for a profile boost

Personally I struggle with the logic that he is involved much at all

he has been the one chairman in this league who has made a point of having a DOF for these things. But I’d expect him to sign the contracts for example

I know it suits fans views of course
 
I think there is a stimulating comparison to be made with Brighton.

1. Most fans, probably yourself too, want Levy away from the football side. Yet Bloom is a numbers man who’s no doubt highly involved in transfers.

2. There was a period where other teams tried to emulate our transfer business. We’d signed Modric, Berbatov, Bale amongst others.

3. I think there is a strong argument that where we went wrong is moving away from the model where Spurs senior management were more involved and accountable on the footballing side.

Let’s no forgot fans love to capture a moment and extrapolate it as everything - when in reality things will shift each month. That said, the reason Brighton are excelling is because of their shrewd transfer business. We did what all fans were screaming for - moving the footballing side away from Levy. Yet we’ve possibly had one of the worse returns from our transfer investment with the Manager of Football model this year. Forster being lauded by Ali Good as our most successful signing when we spent in excess of 100m.

How we spent so much and neglected to strengthen the defence is worthy of investigation.

What do we take from this? We need stability. And I personally would welcome DLs greater involvement in the footballing side. History shows us that when he didn’t have the stadium project we behaved far more like Brighton and uncovered more gems. Times have changed and no doubt we need a dedicated footballing team. But as Brighton show, having an owner who cares deeply about transfers is critical. So much of success is dictated by who you sign, I would welcome greater input from levy into this critical area. The club has to improve this area with the owner taking charge, it is too important for the senior management not to be involved. That is how Brighton do it, and we have a past history of success in a similar mould. Now we have to update this model to be compatible with our current reality.

Said it above, Brighton may be the real deal but we simply won't know for several years

I do think you have highlighted something, I think we lost our way as a club on the football side with the stadium. The stadium took so much of our attention, we neglected the other side and forgot we still need to get the football side correct and the stadium is supposed to be simply a source of additional revenue to help us compete.

If we get the Levy -> Munn -> DoF -> Manager chain right (big if, lots could fudge up) I think you get the right balance. you need a Levy to protect the long term future of the club and to generate the revenue to back the team but I think you can have better/specialized people per area (we have grown 10X in revenue in ENIC timeline, staff must be similar. In that kind of growth you need to hire/delegate)
 
Post moving into the Amex It took them 6 seasons to get out of the championship with FOUR failed attempts at the play offs. I'd like to read the DubaiSeagull posts on their equivalent message boards for that period.

It's only since Potter arrived that they've looked any good and even his finishes are 15th 16th and 9th.

Flavour of the month they are:rolleyes:.

Bloom is a good owner but D.ick Knight did much much more for them.

I did not know all those facts, interesting

I took some licence with my initial post to spark debate, it worked haha, because yeh we have come from different pasts BUT that said Brighton today have every opportunity afforded to us when Levy could have stuck and twist when we were at WHL on success and we sold the likes of Modric and Bale and also looked to take the club sustainable, moves which have often been classed as unambitious and is probably the most frequent stick used to bash. Brighton could stick with their squad, force some stays, back the manager and add 2/3 bigger names or relevant fits (in their model). But I would guess given the "we need to be sustainable" (where we heard that before) I see them selling MacAlister and the other midfielder moosh.

Will be interesting at the very least if they are able to buy and flip their talent into a CL place like we managed to?

On a totally different note, whats ultimately fascinating to me is that despite claims we have not progressed under Enic those that hold that opinion also consider United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea our peers and rivals, they certainly do when making comparisons....They certainly were not our rivals 20 years ago, infact all four of them were a speck on the horizon, so the fact people lump us in with those clubs in order to shout about our lack of success, that surely proves progress?
 
Said it above, Brighton may be the real deal but we simply won't know for several years

I do think you have highlighted something, I think we lost our way as a club on the football side with the stadium. The stadium took so much of our attention, we neglected the other side and forgot we still need to get the football side correct and the stadium is supposed to be simply a source of additional revenue to help us compete.

If we get the Levy -> Munn -> DoF -> Manager chain right (big if, lots could fudge up) I think you get the right balance. you need a Levy to protect the long term future of the club and to generate the revenue to back the team but I think you can have better/specialized people per area (we have grown 10X in revenue in ENIC timeline, staff must be similar. In that kind of growth you need to hire/delegate)

…and ultimately getting the strategy and people right is down to the owner.

Also interesting is Paul Barber at Brighton who’s implementing our old model there to great effect.

Part of the challenge is how a club ‘matures’, goes from bargain/talent hunting to mature CL purchaser of talent. It is not a transition we have successfully made yet. We’re close but no cigar. It is splashing the cash on Gvardiol, or signing Kim Min Jae last summer. 10s of millions but bargains if we’d gone in hard for them last summer.

But we went in hard for Richarlison. Backed the manager. So maybe @glorygloryeze can see why there is an argument for a more strategic vision and control by the club on signings. This doesn’t mean levy picking up the phone etc just being highly critical and focused on this side of the club. Because it is the difference between success and frustration.
 
…and ultimately getting the strategy and people right is down to the owner.

Also interesting is Paul Barber at Brighton who’s implementing our old model there to great effect.

Part of the challenge is how a club ‘matures’, goes from bargain/talent hunting to mature CL purchaser of talent. It is not a transition we have successfully made yet. We’re close but no cigar. It is splashing the cash on Gvardiol, or signing Kim Min Jae last summer. 10s of millions but bargains if we’d gone in hard for them last summer.

But we went in hard for Richarlison. Backed the manager. So maybe @glorygloryeze can see why there is an argument for a more strategic vision and control by the club on signings. This doesn’t mean levy picking up the phone etc just being highly critical and focused on this side of the club. Because it is the difference between success and frustration.
Not sure I’d say our model is anything like there’s
Paul Barber is a brilliant football leader. He has so much control at Brighton too
What’s ingesting is if I was to ask do you know who the DOF is at Brighton, do you know the answer?


It’s David Weir the ex Everton CB. He took over from Dan Ashworth. He has been looking after their loans and IIRC he was also an assistant at Brentford so gets the data driven structure

that’s succession planning and ruining ahead which we really lack
 
I think there is a stimulating comparison to be made with Brighton.

1. Most fans, probably yourself too, want Levy away from the football side. Yet Bloom is a numbers man who’s no doubt highly involved in transfers.

2. There was a period where other teams tried to emulate our transfer business. We’d signed Modric, Berbatov, Bale amongst others.

3. I think there is a strong argument that where we went wrong is moving away from the model where Spurs senior management were more involved and accountable on the footballing side.

Let’s no forgot fans love to capture a moment and extrapolate it as everything - when in reality things will shift each month. That said, the reason Brighton are excelling is because of their shrewd transfer business. We did what all fans were screaming for - moving the footballing side away from Levy. Yet we’ve possibly had one of the worse returns from our transfer investment with the Manager of Football model this year. Forster being lauded by Ali Good as our most successful signing when we spent in excess of 100m.

How we spent so much and neglected to strengthen the defence is worthy of investigation.

What do we take from this? We need stability. And I personally would welcome DLs greater involvement in the footballing side. History shows us that when he didn’t have the stadium project we behaved far more like Brighton and uncovered more gems. Times have changed and no doubt we need a dedicated footballing team. But as Brighton show, having an owner who cares deeply about transfers is critical. So much of success is dictated by who you sign, I would welcome greater input from levy into this critical area. The club has to improve this area with the owner taking charge, it is too important for the senior management not to be involved. That is how Brighton do it, and we have a past history of success in a similar mould. Now we have to update this model to be compatible with our current reality.

Modric was comolli? I know levy had to fly out and secure the deal. Bale and walker were recommended by pleat if i remember right.
 
Not sure I’d say our model is anything like there’s

Our old model, rather than current one.

There is a kind of identity gap with us now. Are we buying cheap talent, trying to break into the top echelons? Or are we a top side with our flashy stadium trying to buy the best and enter the elite ranks through the front door?

I think we should still try to be a disruptor. But at a CL level. Signing the very best 'undiscovered' players. Which means signing the likes of Gvardiol or Kim min-jae last summer rather than Richarlison. That requires buy-in from the coach, and a club strategy. We seem to be missing that clear strategy, with responsibility farmed out to Paratici instead.

Easy in hindsight, and we could have had a reverse situation in an alternative reality. We signed a great CB. Kane and Son were injured and we missed out on CL with Conte walking out in a strop because the club didn't sign Richarlison who's bashed 20 goals in for Everton :)

I do think Levy needs to be highly involved ensuring our vision and transfer strategy is effective. Because we have dropped the ball massively since Baber left and we stopped looking for value in the transfer market.
 
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Modric was comolli? I know levy had to fly out and secure the deal.
There you go, just shows that he was highly involved, where now, he's more distanced from transfers. A good thing or not?

Bale and walker were recommended by pleat if i remember right.
Having the CEO involved is not asking them to be a scout. It's ensuring a vision and strategy is realised.

Getting transfers right is critical. They are what will elevate us long term, probably more so than a manager. Its too important for the club leadership not to be involved.
 
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Our old model, rather than current one.

There is a kind of identity gap with us now. Are we buying cheap talent, trying to break into the top echelons? Or are we a top side with our flashy stadium trying to buy the best and enter the elite through the front door?

I think we should still try to be a disruptor. But at a CL level. Signing the very best 'undiscovered' players. Which means signing the likes of Gvardiol or Kim min-jae last summer rather than Richarlison. That requires buy-in from the coach, and a club strategy. We seem to be missing that clear strategy, with responsibility farmed out to Paratici instead.

Easy in hindsight, and we could have had a reverse situation in an alternative reality. We signed a great CB. Kane and Son were injured and we missed out on CL with Conte walking out in a strop because the club didn't sign Richarlison who's bashed 20 goals in for Everton :)

I do think Levy needs to be highly involved ensuring our vision and transfer strategy is effective. Because we have dropped the ball massively since Baber left and we stopped looking for value in the transfer market.
You need a philosophy and structure to do that
 
No chance of us dropping like them IMO
I think there is a chance. Losing Kane and having Richarlison up top instead loses us 15 goals plus a season along with most of our creative attacking play. Combine that with us being incredibly weak in the GK and CB positions, having no creative midfielder, a manager perhaps coming in with no PL experience and likely a tiny transfer budget this summer due to Porto and Kulusevski probably using up at least 80% of it and that is a lot of ingredients of a bad season.
 
I think there is a chance. Losing Kane and having Richarlison up top instead loses us 15 goals plus a season along with most of our creative attacking play. Combine that with us being incredibly weak in the GK and CB positions, having no creative midfielder, a manager perhaps coming in with no PL experience and likely a tiny transfer budget this summer due to Porto and Kulusevski probably using up at least 80% of it and that is a lot of ingredients of a bad season.
People are assuming we wouldn’t buy anyone which I find is odd

Kane is irreplaceable but needs replacing at some point

we will spend plenty of money I’m sure

we sell kane - we buy a new player

we keep Kane and we still have the best player in the league and a new coach who knows how to play football… so we get better

It’s a a win win
 
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1. Most fans, probably yourself too, want Levy away from the football side. Yet Bloom is a numbers man who’s no doubt highly involved in transfers.

2. There was a period where other teams tried to emulate our transfer business. We’d signed Modric, Berbatov, Bale amongst others.

3. I think there is a strong argument that where we went wrong is moving away from the model where Spurs senior management were more involved and accountable on the footballing side.

I disagree, but it's an interesting point of view for sure.

What I would say is that the successes of Brighton under Bloom and Spurs under ENIC pre- roughly 2017 both come down to one thing - data-driven recruitment and succession planning. But contrary to your viewpoint, Levy is not responsible for either of those.

When he first came in, in 2001, he had some genuinely innovative ideas relative to the rest of the league - his preference for a DoF model (very rare in England) and openness to recruiting data specialists to assist with this model. We brought in Arnesen, then Comolli - we brought in Edwards, then Mitchell. All of them employed data-driven recruitment. And, the other thing Levy was good at early on was an eye for talent - a lot of our former staff are now making waves elsewhere, and we used to get poached for staff a lot. Edwards went to Liverpool, Mitchell to Monaco, Inglethorpe to Liverpool, McDermott and to the FA, and so on.

But, and this is key, Levy was not responsible for our transfer successes - he himself was a terrible penny-pincher more focused on being seen to 'win' a tough negotiation than anything else. We have enough evidence and testimony from the likes of Comolli that Levy's only concern was whether the player was cheap, not the identification of said player.

And when all our staff left or were poached in the mid-2010s, two things happened.
  • Levy lost his edge, his eye for seeing backroom talent, which is how we eventually ended up as a comedy club with 'I hate January' Hitchen in charge of transfers with David Pleat assisting. I don't think he's made a good staff choice since the stadium, and that includes this random Munn bloke whose biggest club to date was some outfit in Australia.
  • Levy stepped in to start running transfers himself, an utterly criminal decision which led to Sissoko over Wijnaldum, N' Koudou over Mane, no transfers at all for a full year in 2018- 2019, and many disasters since.
The thinking behind our best recruitment wasn't done by Levy, but by good men he hired. For some reason he lost his ability to identify that sort of talent, stepped in to run transfers himself, and was disastrous at it.

Tony Bloom may or may not be involved with Brighton's deals more, but if he is, his track record bears out that he knows and understands recruitment. Levy does not - if we're doomed to be stuck with the abominable Lewis and his mediocre henchman, I'd rather the latter just fudged off to the Bahamas to live on his boss's yacht instead of ruining everything at Spurs.
 
I disagree, but it's an interesting point of view for sure.

What I would say is that the successes of Brighton under Bloom and Spurs under ENIC pre- roughly 2017 both come down to one thing - data-driven recruitment and succession planning. But contrary to your viewpoint, Levy is not responsible for either of those.

When he first came in, in 2001, he had some genuinely innovative ideas relative to the rest of the league - his preference for a DoF model (very rare in England) and openness to recruiting data specialists to assist with this model. We brought in Arnesen, then Comolli - we brought in Edwards, then Mitchell. All of them employed data-driven recruitment. And, the other thing Levy was good at early on was an eye for talent - a lot of our former staff are now making waves elsewhere, and we used to get poached for staff a lot. Edwards went to Liverpool, Mitchell to Monaco, Inglethorpe to Liverpool, McDermott and to the FA, and so on.

But, and this is key, Levy was not responsible for our transfer successes - he himself was a terrible penny-pincher more focused on being seen to 'win' a tough negotiation than anything else. We have enough evidence and testimony from the likes of Comolli that Levy's only concern was whether the player was cheap, not the identification of said player.

And when all our staff left or were poached in the mid-2010s, two things happened.
  • Levy lost his edge, his eye for seeing backroom talent, which is how we eventually ended up as a comedy club with 'I hate January' Hitchen in charge of transfers with David Pleat assisting. I don't think he's made a good staff choice since the stadium, and that includes this random Munn bloke whose biggest club to date was some outfit in Australia.
  • Levy stepped in to start running transfers himself, an utterly criminal decision which led to Sissoko over Wijnaldum, N' Koudou over Mane, no transfers at all for a full year in 2018- 2019, and many disasters since.
The thinking behind our best recruitment wasn't done by Levy, but by good men he hired. For some reason he lost his ability to identify that sort of talent, stepped in to run transfers himself, and was disastrous at it.

Tony Bloom may or may not be involved with Brighton's deals more, but if he is, his track record bears out that he knows and understands recruitment. Levy does not - if we're doomed to be stuck with the abominable Lewis and his mediocre henchman, I'd rather the latter just fudged off to the Bahamas to live on his boss's yacht instead of ruining everything at Spurs.

The second half of your post is just conjecture. One narrative based upon your personal view. No one ever said Levy was an ace scout. Simply that he took a greater role in ensuring our transfer success. As a vital, key to success, it makes sense that the top dog insurers we get transfers correct. If Levy hired the right people to reach this goal, that was him doing his job, was it not? Since we started to give this responsibility to Paratici and Poch prior, there has been a marked drop-off in our transfer hits, is that a fair hypnosis?

You use history to justify your point when it suits you. All the failures are Levy failures, all the Brighton hits Bloom successes, examples of him "understanding recruitment" which of course doesn't apply to Levy and our hits. (How naive a view point is that? That a successful CEO with degree from Cambridge doesn't "understand recruitment". But you do, Bloom does.) You are missing the point, which is pretty simple: you and a lot of other fans asked for Levy to step back from the footballing side. And we've performed far worse with him less involved. When he was more central and involved (not scouting or involved in any of the detail, but helping to oversee) we were extremely successful. So why would you want Levy to be distanced?
 
Interesting that more and more of the traditional media are finally pinpointing where our issues are - still no mention of Lewis, but a welcome change nonetheless. Holt's ranting notwithstanding.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...enhams-days-Englands-football-elite-OVER.html

OLIVER HOLT: Spurs' days among the elite of English football are OVER. They are also-rans now. Levy's history of bad decisions has caught up with him and his shadow lingers over the club

"Spurs is a manager’s graveyard. It is a club where the shadow of Levy lingers over all and inhibits all. It is a club that relies on an excuse culture. It is a club that refuses to commit. It is a club that backs away from any vision that does not pay due reverence to the GHod of the deal. There is always a caveat. There is always a catch. It is a place where managers go to be unhappy
."
 
I disagree, but it's an interesting point of view for sure.

What I would say is that the successes of Brighton under Bloom and Spurs under ENIC pre- roughly 2017 both come down to one thing - data-driven recruitment and succession planning. But contrary to your viewpoint, Levy is not responsible for either of those.

When he first came in, in 2001, he had some genuinely innovative ideas relative to the rest of the league - his preference for a DoF model (very rare in England) and openness to recruiting data specialists to assist with this model. We brought in Arnesen, then Comolli - we brought in Edwards, then Mitchell. All of them employed data-driven recruitment. And, the other thing Levy was good at early on was an eye for talent - a lot of our former staff are now making waves elsewhere, and we used to get poached for staff a lot. Edwards went to Liverpool, Mitchell to Monaco, Inglethorpe to Liverpool, McDermott and to the FA, and so on.

But, and this is key, Levy was not responsible for our transfer successes - he himself was a terrible penny-pincher more focused on being seen to 'win' a tough negotiation than anything else. We have enough evidence and testimony from the likes of Comolli that Levy's only concern was whether the player was cheap, not the identification of said player.

And when all our staff left or were poached in the mid-2010s, two things happened.
  • Levy lost his edge, his eye for seeing backroom talent, which is how we eventually ended up as a comedy club with 'I hate January' Hitchen in charge of transfers with David Pleat assisting. I don't think he's made a good staff choice since the stadium, and that includes this random Munn bloke whose biggest club to date was some outfit in Australia.
  • Levy stepped in to start running transfers himself, an utterly criminal decision which led to Sissoko over Wijnaldum, N' Koudou over Mane, no transfers at all for a full year in 2018- 2019, and many disasters since.
The thinking behind our best recruitment wasn't done by Levy, but by good men he hired. For some reason he lost his ability to identify that sort of talent, stepped in to run transfers himself, and was disastrous at it.

Tony Bloom may or may not be involved with Brighton's deals more, but if he is, his track record bears out that he knows and understands recruitment. Levy does not - if we're doomed to be stuck with the abominable Lewis and his mediocre henchman, I'd rather the latter just fudged off to the Bahamas to live on his boss's yacht instead of ruining everything at Spurs.
Where did you get the Mane thoughts from?
 
The second half of your post is just conjecture. One narrative based upon your personal view. No one ever said Levy was an ace scout. Simply that he took a greater role in ensuring our transfer success. As a vital, key to success, it makes sense that the top dog insurers we get transfers correct. If Levy hired the right people to reach this goal, that was him doing his job, was it not? Since we started to give this responsibility to Paratici and *Poch* prior, there has been a marked drop-off in our transfer hits, is that a fair hypnosis?

You use history to justify your point when it suits you. All the failures are Levy failures, all the Brighton hits Bloom successes, examples of him "understanding recruitment" which of course doesn't apply to Levy and our hits. (How naive a view point is that? That a successful CEO with degree from Cambridge doesn't "understand recruitment". But you do, Bloom does.) You are missing the point, which is pretty simple: you and a lot of other fans asked for Levy to step back from the footballing side. And we've performed far worse with him less involved. When he was more central and involved (not scouting or involved in any of the detail, but helping to oversee) we were extremely successful. So why would you want Levy to be distanced?

*Hitchen*
 
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