ENIC

[jimmyb]

Levy is a fantastic businessman, but he doesn't know much about football. His habit of leaving deals to the last possible moment is a key factor in why we get off to a slow start in many seasons. Take this season, we had Defoe and Harry Kane as options to play up front in the first game of the season. He did the same thing last season, he left it late to get Parker and Adebayor. Now I'm not saying those players would have magically won us points in those games, but I'd like to think they would have at least improved our chances of getting positive results. We finished a point behind Arsenal last season, that shows how close it is when you are going for the top 4. You simply can't be giving points away, at any point in the season.

Now I understand by leaving deals late he manages to drive the price down, but you have to balance that out against missing out on those players services for a game or more which could ultimately be the difference between CL and no CL.

The Leandro deal. Why have we been chasing a player who we clearly can't afford and why are we trying to do business with a club that has a far higher valuation of a player than we have and is trying to rip us off? We've been after him for years. And why bid on the last day of the window? What chance was there of flying him over from Brazil to have a medical? Why not just make the bid 10 days ago? It smacks to me of making it look like we tried to our fans, when in reality, we had little chance of getting him. Didn't we do the same with Rossi a few years ago?

I'm not saying get rid of Levy, I just feel he lacks the understanding of football in certain areas and it costs us from time to time.

My final point, he is a very good chairman, but he is not the best chairman in the league/Europe/the world as I have frequently seen him described as such on this board.

With respect to Levy's general policy, there is definitely something in what you say.

However, I don't believe that driving down the price is the only reason for deals being left to the last minute. Quite often, I think, it's a question of the selling clubs holding out until the last minute in an attempt to drive the price up. It's also, quite often, the players (and, more likely, their agents) holding out until the last minute in an attempt to get the best possible deal from the best possible club.

With respect to Leandro in particular, reports seem to indicate that it was Internacional who contacted Spurs - rather than vice versa - to say that they were prepared to do a deal. In which case, there was no harm in Spurs seeing if there genuinely was a deal to be done. Turns out that there wasn't.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

There was an interesting conversation on Sky yday regarding how clubs conduct themselves re: transfers once they move up via promotion to the big PL money. I think it was Simon Jordan who noted that a club like West Brom would get promoted, use the added revenue to build up their squad, adding depth to their ranks of so-called 'footsoldiers', maybe upgrade their training facilities or stadium, but refrain from spending foolishly on big names.

They would get relegated but return to the Championship well stocked and wiser, ready to compete for immediate re-promotion. Now they're nicely established at the PL level.

You could make the same point about how Levy has managed Spurs in recent years as they strive to advance beyond the PL or Europa League into more regular CL appearances. We did well getting into CL play. Neither an easy nor smooth process but it was, over time, a steady upward progression. Once on the big stage, there can be little doubt that the club's image was greatly enhanced, both by our play on the pitch and the great match day experience created at WHL.

To Levy's credit, none of that has gone to his head. We've continued to battle for top 4 placings while holding true to an entertaining playing style and acquiring a manager capable of attracting talent to maintain both these ambitions. The club has grown its assets and resources and is on the verge now of a major new stadium.

Patient, professional plodding. But always with progress. It may be a bit slow for some used to more immediate forms of gratification, but it has truly been a wonderful job done by Levy.

 

[milo]

There was an interesting conversation on Sky yday regarding how clubs conduct themselves re: transfers once they move up via promotion to the big PL money. I think it was Simon Jordan who noted that a club like West Brom would get promoted, use the added revenue to build up their squad, adding depth to their ranks of so-called 'footsoldiers', maybe upgrade their training facilities or stadium, but refrain from spending foolishly on big names.

They would get relegated but return to the Championship well stocked and wiser, ready to compete for immediate re-promotion. Now they're nicely established at the PL level.

You could make the same point about how Levy has managed Spurs in recent years as they strive to advance beyond the PL or Europa League into more regular CL appearances. We did well getting into CL play. Neither an easy nor smooth process but it was, over time, a steady upward progression. Once on the big stage, there can be little doubt that the club's image was greatly enhanced, both by our play on the pitch and the great match day experience created at WHL.

To Levy's credit, none of that has gone to his head. We've continued to battle for top 4 placings while holding true to an entertaining playing style and acquiring a manager capable of attracting talent to maintain both these ambitions. The club has grown its assets and resources and is on the verge now of a major new stadium.

Patient, professional plodding. But always with progress. It may be a bit slow for some used to more immediate forms of gratification, but it has truly been a wonderful job done by Levy.

A good and interesting post, I hadn't noticed the parallels before but it makes sense

 

[Jurgen the German]

How can you possibly know?

Your argument that leaving deals late damages the team, would the squad be better with few quality players because we spent larger sums earlier in windows?

How I do know? I'm judging it based on his penchant for leaving deals late as I explained in my previous post. I don't know the man personally but I'm guessing most people on this forum don't know any of our players or the manager but that doesn't stop them giving an assessment on said player.

Another point that hasn't been mentioned as far as I know, what do people make when it comes to his decisions to sack certain managers? I don't mean to take this thread off track and I'm not talking one manager in particular. And will he give AVB time and be patient if we don't finish in the top 4 for the next 3 seasons? I realise that you can't keep a manager if he you believe he isn't the right man, but you do not build stability and attain success at a club by constantly chopping and changing managers.

 

[Lemonade Money]

The balance has to run against Levy. Only one CC during his tenure, one CL finish not capatalised on. Too many sackings/wrong appontments . Wasted millions on tranfers . Bentley, Bent, Sigi , Dempsey Dembele ?

Turns downs bids for players, then ends up never selling them , or getting rid of them fror nothing. Rarely gets the players we do buy, in early enough. Possibly could have sold Hudd for £4m earlt in the window, could easlily be the best bid we get, see Jenas, Bently GDS.

Wasted millions on the Straford fiasco, was always a non runner.In normal business would be sacked for that alone. Has lost millions in lost revenue from no move. Price has gone up for the cost of the move.

Plus side, we are not bust and no longer mid table, so higher than Wigan , Fulham, and other clubs we should be higher than.

We have the same potential gates receips as Arsenal, who get the 2nd highest in the World. Levy is a loser for the club. Will alwats feck up , always trying to be too clever, will always dither. Does not learn from his mistakes.

Aston Villa, Saudi Sportswashing Machine & Everton (comparable size clubs) have won nothing while Levy has been chairman. Is this not more about CL and sugar daddy money putting the top clubs in a different league and sweeping up all trophies? The only other teams outside the top table to win anything since 2001 are Blackburn, Middlesbrough, Birmingham and Portsmouth, and look where their chairmen have got them.

 

[jimmyb]

There was an interesting conversation on Sky yday regarding how clubs conduct themselves re: transfers once they move up via promotion to the big PL money. I think it was Simon Jordan who noted that a club like West Brom would get promoted, use the added revenue to build up their squad, adding depth to their ranks of so-called 'footsoldiers', maybe upgrade their training facilities or stadium, but refrain from spending foolishly on big names.

They would get relegated but return to the Championship well stocked and wiser, ready to compete for immediate re-promotion. Now they're nicely established at the PL level.

You could make the same point about how Levy has managed Spurs in recent years as they strive to advance beyond the PL or Europa League into more regular CL appearances. We did well getting into CL play. Neither an easy nor smooth process but it was, over time, a steady upward progression. Once on the big stage, there can be little doubt that the club's image was greatly enhanced, both by our play on the pitch and the great match day experience created at WHL.

To Levy's credit, none of that has gone to his head. We've continued to battle for top 4 placings while holding true to an entertaining playing style and acquiring a manager capable of attracting talent to maintain both these ambitions. The club has grown its assets and resources and is on the verge now of a major new stadium.

Patient, professional plodding. But always with progress. It may be a bit slow for some used to more immediate forms of gratification, but it has truly been a wonderful job done by Levy.

Have to say, that's an excellent post.

And the West Brom analogy is one that I had never considered before. Spot on.

 

[billyiddo]

^
Graham, Hoddle and Santini were all the right calls

After Arnesen left there was always a chance the new DoF and Jol would not be a good fit for one another - I was a huge Jol fan and think many Spurs fans under rate his time/work here but given the circumstances i don't hold the sacking against Levy at all really.

Ramos - fair enough

Redknapp fair enough


Generally we have seen improvement after each replacment, so Im not sure what the problem is.

stability only works if the manager is good enough in the first place and the chairman and he can forge a good realtionship - chopping and changing till the right man is found is a neccesity

 

[Jurgen the German]

^
Graham, Hoddle and Santini were all the right calls

After Arnesen left there was always a chance the new DoF and Jol would not be a good fit for one another - I was a huge Jol fan and think many Spurs fans under rate his time/work here but given the circumstances i don't hold the sacking against Levy at all really.

Ramos - fair enough

Redknapp fair enough


Generally we have seen improvement after each replacment, so Im not sure what the problem is.

stability only works if the manager is good enough in the first place and the chairman and he can forge a good realtionship - chopping and changing till the right man is found is a neccesity

Do you think Levy will stick by AVB if we finish in 5th place for the next 2/3 seasons?

 

[billyiddo]

I don't think it's as simple to say - will two 5th place finishes be enough to keep him in the job?

I don't think any managerial sacking by Levy has been based on league position, except maybe Ramos - so i can certainly see Villa Boas staying in the circumstance you provide (just as i could see him be sacked if he is 4th/3rd and things behind the scene aren't right)

 

[greatwhitenorf]

I think AVB is in a very secure place right now. With all the work going on to get the stadium under construction, the prevailing attitude has to be about the big picture. He's done enough so far to shed all the negative perceptions built up by his Chelsea tenure. The win at Old Trafford was a huge first step, but the acquisition of Holtby speaks volumes about how young ambitious players view what Spurs can offer.

He's here long term unless Real Madrid come calling.

 

[stelan]

I think the problem is that many fans on GG, do not realize how much more attractive it is to go to one of the world's 10 largest clubs than to a club that ranked 15-20. We must also bear in mind that many smaller clubs can compete on wages in the case of any single player, if they do not have too many people who earn too much. Many here seem to only want to buy players for the sake of it, we need a striker, so buy striker for any price, fudge if they are good or right for us. I think Levy has done a very good job, if we do not find the right players do not buy! We can not do as ManCity do, pay three times as much as they should cost and give the player five times the salary that he is worth. We have a club that lives in the real world, and I would not want it any other way

 

[milo]

How I do know? I'm judging it based on his penchant for leaving deals late as I explained in my previous post. I don't know the man personally but I'm guessing most people on this forum don't know any of our players or the manager but that doesn't stop them giving an assessment on said player.

Another point that hasn't been mentioned as far as I know, what do people make when it comes to his decisions to sack certain managers? I don't mean to take this thread off track and I'm not talking one manager in particular. And will he give AVB time and be patient if we don't finish in the top 4 for the next 3 seasons? I realise that you can't keep a manager if he you believe he isn't the right man, but you do not build stability and attain success at a club by constantly chopping and changing managers.

I'm not sure that you have not really addressed the point that I was trying to make but that is probably my fault for not being clearer.

I'm sure that leaving deals late is a business decision not a footballing one. I think that we do it so that we do not pay over the odds in transfer fees and wages. If that is the case, then it would follow that we would sign less players (and a weaker squad) if we did our business earlier. I don't think that there is a right or wrong answer to this but I can understand why we approach transfer windows the way we do.

 

[scaramanga]

I think the problem is that many fans on GG, do not realize how much more attractive it is to go to one of the world's 10 largest clubs than to a club that ranked 15-20. We must also bear in mind that many smaller clubs can compete on wages in the case of any single player, if they do not have too many people who earn too much. Many here seem to only want to buy players for the sake of it, we need a striker, so buy striker for any price, fudge if they are good or right for us. I think Levy has done a very good job, if we do not find the right players do not buy! We can not do as ManCity do, pay three times as much as they should cost and give the player five times the salary that he is worth. We have a club that lives in the real world, and I would not want it any other way

This.

There are only two situations in which a club like ours can afford to spend big on a player:

1) They will have a sell-on value equal to or greater than what we pay (after sell-on fees, agents, etc).
2) They stay with us for a long time (probably 6 years or more) and in that time, being success to the club.

We cannot just afford to lose £10-15M on a player like Utd, City, Chelsea and to some extent Arsenal can.

Strikers in particular are very expensive and very risky. If we're going to throw £15-20M at a player we have to be very, very sure they won't end up being sold on for £5M in two years.

 

[scaramanga]

Missed this bit of my last post (open question to everyone):

How many players in the world do you know of that you are absolutely certain will get the 15-20 goals we need in a season in our squad, in the Premiership?

I can think of about 5 and they're all at clubs who are regularly in with a chance of winning the CL. There are a few more who I'm pretty sure would, and they're all out of our reach too.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I'm not sure that you have not really addressed the point that I was trying to make but that is probably my fault for not being clearer.

I'm sure that leaving deals late is a business decision not a footballing one. I think that we do it so that we do not pay over the odds in transfer fees and wages. If that is the case, then it would follow that we would sign less players (and a weaker squad) if we did our business earlier. I don't think that there is a right or wrong answer to this but I can understand why we approach transfer windows the way we do.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Are you saying that our choice is to sign players late in the window or not at all?

As for the first sentence in that paragraph, it really needs to be a football decision as well Milo.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think the problem is that many fans on GG, do not realize how much more attractive it is to go to one of the world's 10 largest clubs than to a club that ranked 15-20. We must also bear in mind that many smaller clubs can compete on wages in the case of any single player, if they do not have too many people who earn too much. Many here seem to only want to buy players for the sake of it, we need a striker, so buy striker for any price, fudge if they are good or right for us. I think Levy has done a very good job, if we do not find the right players do not buy! We can not do as ManCity do, pay three times as much as they should cost and give the player five times the salary that he is worth. We have a club that lives in the real world, and I would not want it any other way

It's not a case of spending for the sake of it. We have needed to strengthen our strike force for over 3 seasons, that is why the class for a new striker keep coming.

What stopped us going for players like Benteke for example or Demba Ba? The first one is a perfect example of what we can afford and would have improved us in my opinion, he fits Levy's MO too, young, talented, potential big sell on value. Our scouts have a lot to answer for too but I suppose that is for another thread.

Instead we make pointless bids for Leandro and Rossi. We allegedly made a bid for Aguero that was believed to be over £30m, does that mean we CAN afford players like that? Or was the bid made purely to appease the fans and make it look like we were trying to sign him when in reality there was no chance of that?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Missed this bit of my last post (open question to everyone):

How many players in the world do you know of that you are absolutely certain will get the 15-20 goals we need in a season in our squad, in the Premiership?

I can think of about 5 and they're all at clubs who are regularly in with a chance of winning the CL. There are a few more who I'm pretty sure would, and they're all out of our reach too.

No player bar Messi is an absolute certainty to succeed. But how long is this excuse going to carry on for? I've given examples of players who were realistic targets. No one is saying we have to spend £30m.

 

[billyiddo]

two examples - Benteke and Ba

one has a ticking time bomb for a knee and has just moved to the champions of europe on more money than we could ever pay him. the other has been in the prem 5 minutes and is far from a certainty - would just be adding a player to our ranks for the sake of it - we need a first choice striker, not someone at the same level as our current 2nd choice forward.

gonna have to do better than that Jurgs

 

[Jurgen the German]

two examples - Benteke and Ba

one has a ticking time bomb for a knee and has just moved to the champions of europe on more money than we could ever pay him. the other has been in the prem 5 minutes and is far from a certainty - would just be adding a player to our ranks for the sake of it - we need a first choice striker, not someone at the same level as our current 2nd choice forward.

gonna have to do better than that Jurgs

Didn't stop West Ham going for him, or Saudi Sportswashing Machine. So what we shouldn't go for strikers because eventually they will end up at top clubs anyway?

On current form, Benteke is better than any forward we have at our club. The only thing he needs to polish up on is his finishing.

A few more examples then:

Negredo
Llorente
Kiessling
Michu

What exactly do our scouts do?

 

[billyiddo]

current form :lol:

yes, let's go out and sign any player who is currently playing better than ours - sound business logic there mate

(by the way Defoe is having a better season than him)

Michu - flavour of the month, hows Jelavic getting on in his second season in the prem btw?

Llorente - Im sure we have been on that one at various points in the past but he's a striker that's looking to play for a CL side for CL wages, something we can't offer

Negrado - is he any better than what we have got, really? ive heard mixed reports myself

don't know Kiessling tbf

buying any forward who is not a clear improvement on what we currently have is a total waste of time at this point as come the summer we'll see ourselves with 3 similarly skilled players - none of whom are the top top players that we require but will all be here taking up space and reluctant to move on prohibiting us from bringing in a better player.