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Victimpool FC - Klopp leaving, grown men crying

glasgowspur said:
It usually always is in situations like this.
Say what you like but every club has idiot followers, some more than others, and Liverpool certainly fall into the more category.
It the authorities responsibility to make sure that they organise and police an event proportionally, taking into account past behaviour of the attending fans and be prepared to deal with any issues that may arise.
If your past behaviour has caused the response level to be higher then tough, that's on you.
It would seem that the response has been inadequate, and not proportional to the events of the night, but i also do question how it looks like there are a lot more Liverpool followers than there should have been.
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You’re going to have to be specific on the ‘past behaviour’ comment. Again, if this is about Heysel, I am happy to discuss it in a PM. British football supporters have been paying for the behaviour of British teams abroad, but specifically the national side, since the 70s.

The response level you’re referring to was pathetic. Poor planning as usual by UEFA led to a clusterfudge on the day. They are squirming. I hope they get dealt a class action lawsuit. They’re scumbags who place the fans low on their priority list. As someone said, let’s wait for the full report. I am hopeful the inquiry won’t be led by UEFA.
 
I don't think my local 11 will qualify for Champions League this year, so that's nowt to worry about. But when they did, not too long ago, away fan treatment in Monterrey and Mexico City and Guadalajara was, by all accounts, warm and accommodating. And it's been reciprocated when rival clubs come north.

If I ever did deign to travel to European CL events, why, I'd do it right. With a press pass to go pitchside. The sort of arrangement that's taken me to the belly of such beeasts as The Bernabeu, Vicente Calderon, The Azteca, The Jalisco, Estadio Nacional (Lima), Hampden Park(old firm), Ibrox, Stade Geoffroy-Guichard, Giants Stadium, the Orange Bowl, Tiger Stadium (Detroit), Olympic Stadium (Montreal), Daytona and Charlotte race tracks and many others.

As a fan, I've visited WHL, Elland Rd., The Dell, Loftus Rd., Lambeau Field, Yankee Stadium (old one) and many others.

Most of these (not the motorsport events) took place in the '80s or early '90s, when football was in a very troubled state that began to jeopardize the hard-earned livelihoods of those covering it. You rarely heard a kind word spoken about Liverpool and the trouble they created in other media environs or about the state of the game in general.

I dumped it and went on to earn a good living working in more sensibly managed sports environments. My views don't require justification to anyone.
 
greatwhitenorf said:
I don't think my local 11 will qualify for Champions League this year, so that's nowt to worry about. But when they did, not too long ago, away fan treatment in Monterrey and Mexico City and Guadalajara was, by all accounts, warm and accommodating. And it's been reciprocated when rival clubs come north.

If I ever did deign to travel to European CL events, why, I'd do it right. With a press pass to go pitchside. The sort of arrangement that's taken me to the belly of such beeasts as The Bernabeu, Vicente Calderon, The Azteca, The Jalisco, Estadio Nacional (Lima), Hampden Park(old firm), Ibrox, Stade Geoffroy-Guichard, Giants Stadium, the Orange Bowl, Tiger Stadium (Detroit), Olympic Stadium (Montreal), Daytona and Charlotte race tracks and many others.

As a fan, I've visited WHL, Elland Rd., The Dell, Loftus Rd., Lambeau Field, Yankee Stadium (old one) and many others.

Most of these (not the motorsport events) took place in the '80s or early '90s, when football was in a very troubled state that began to jeopardize the hard-earned livelihoods of those covering it. You rarely heard a kind word spoken about Liverpool and the trouble they created in other media environs or about the state of the game in general.

I dumped it and went on to earn a good living working in more sensibly managed sports environments. My views don't require justification to anyone.
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Out of interest, are you telling me about your career as some sort of mitigation/justification for your opinion/viewpoint?
 
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thfcsteff said:
You’re going to have to be specific on the ‘past behaviour’ comment. Again, if this is about Heysel, I am happy to discuss it in a PM. British football supporters have been paying for the behaviour of British teams abroad, but specifically the national side, since the 70s.

The response level you’re referring to was pathetic. Poor planning as usual by UEFA led to a clusterfudge on the day. They are squirming. I hope they get dealt a class action lawsuit. They’re scumbags who place the fans low on their priority list. As someone said, let’s wait for the full report. I am hopeful the inquiry won’t be led by UEFA.
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I really don't know what you find offensive in my post and I will ask you to dial it down in any response to me.
I have no reason to want to take it pm, i hold no views that i am not not prepared to air publicly.

I have been critical of the authorities and organisation of the match.
The fact, and it is a fact, is that matches involving Liverpool and their supporters have led to the deaths of over 130 people.
That maybe a coincidence, it may not all be the fault of Liverpool or their supporters, but i personally would rather the authorities, police or whoever is responsible were more proactive, robust, heavy handed call it what you will than one more poor soul lost their lives.
I will point out that I was the first on the EL thread to point out the potential of trouble at sevilla with the rangers support, who also have a history. Thankfully nothing came of that, but it has to be accepted that certain clubs attract an unsavoury element and that planning must be based on past experience and worst case scenario.
The planning was a fudge up, that is clear and should come as little surprise.
Any inquiry, like all official inquiries, will say exactly what they are told to say.
 
glasgowspur said:
I really don't know what you find offensive in my post and I will ask you to dial it down in any response to me.
I have no reason to want to take it pm, i hold no views that i am not not prepared to air publicly.

I have been critical of the authorities and organisation of the match.
The fact, and it is a fact, is that matches involving Liverpool and their supporters have led to the deaths of over 130 people.
That maybe a coincidence, it may not all be the fault of Liverpool or their supporters, but i personally would rather the authorities, police or whoever is responsible were more proactive, robust, heavy handed call it what you will than one more poor soul lost their lives.
I will point out that I was the first on the EL thread to point out the potential of trouble at sevilla with the rangers support, who also have a history. Thankfully nothing came of that, but it has to be accepted that certain clubs attract an unsavoury element and that planning must be based on past experience and worst case scenario.
The planning was a fudge up, that is clear and should come as little surprise.
Any inquiry, like all official inquiries, will say exactly what they are told to say.
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I’m sorry, dial what down?
I replied in a very reasonable fashion.
The only possible place I can see where you might have misunderstood the intention of my words is in the sentence ‘the response level you’re referring to was pathetic’…I was referring to UEFA/authorities on the ground. To be clear.

In the numbers you quote, you are obviously referring to Heysel and Hillsborough. I implore you (I really do) to please research both events a little more deeply than perhaps you already have. I will say of Heysel that it was a disgraceful tragedy which could’ve happened on dozens of occasions during the era. The venue itself was sadly the perfect facilitator of what happened, which does not excuse the actions but does go someway to explaining why it happened there that night.

I agree with proactive action when planned properly. However, Paris was another failure in UEFA’s cap. Not their first, from picking terrible venues to repeatedly failing to ensure implementation of their own protocols. I genuinely think you might want to look a little deeper into accounts of what happened on Saturday; the planning and conditions are the sort of thing that can actually cause deaths. I’d say we’re lucky some didn’t occur on Saturday (and grateful I should add, albeit I’d hope it isn’t necessary to say that).

All clubs have unsavory elements. We do too. I have been harassed by several (Chelsea, West Ham, Villa, Birmingham). I have never been harassed at Anfield or at the two finals I attended involving our clubs, so my experience does not compute with the reputation Much of it stems from Heysel and what that meant for British cubs in Europe. The reason I invited a PM conversation was not (as it appears you have inferred) meant to insult the integrity of your opinion, it was to try and save this from going on and forever in a public forum, as I am quite frankly genuinely alarmed at some of the things I have read here in the last 72 hours. HeyseI was disgraceful on many levels. I also stand by my assertion that anyone blaming Liverpool supporters for what happened has an agenda because it is (IMO) nonsense. Again for the sake of clarity, I am not addressing you or your posts in these comments.

FWIW, I think the tinkle-poor planning and tear gassing of innocent supporters should be treated as a surprise. We should expect, and demand, more from UEFA tournaments, despite their continual displays of disdain for supporters over sponsors and their own pockets.

Again, I believe everything I have written in reply to your comments has been both above the line and civil. There is only one person with whom I engage in uncivilized posts, and they come here for that sort of thing so I am occasionally happy to oblige/be reeled in.
 
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I have been lurking but not posted for a while but feel compelled to say something about the events on saturday.

The Europeans still have vivid memories of the Heysel tragedy where the feeling is that Liverpool were not punished enough nor justice given to the victims. It was by all accounts a terrible crime that remains to this day. Even after Hillsborough, there was a fair amount of the population who had little sympathy for what happened. Then the storming of the gates in 2007 Athens for the final vs vs Milan. I think someone mentioned on here that they are paying for their previous sins. There may be some truth insofar as the authorities abroad are concerned.

How can Liverpool change this perception?
 
spitshine said:
I have been lurking but not posted for a while but feel compelled to say something about the events on saturday.

The Europeans still have vivid memories of the Heysel tragedy where the feeling is that Liverpool were not punished enough nor justice given to the victims. It was by all accounts a terrible crime that remains to this day. Even after Hillsborough, there was a fair amount of the population who had little sympathy for what happened. Then the storming of the gates in 2007 Athens for the final vs vs Milan. I think someone mentioned on here that they are paying for their previous sins. There may be some truth insofar as the authorities abroad are concerned.

How can Liverpool change this perception?
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It is a great question. Personally, I think taking each event/disaster on its own specific set of facts would be a great start as opposed to conflating them all into one giant ‘their fault?’ I think that the Europeans have a general dislike of English supporters, not just Liverpool. Many clubs would use Europe as a tinkle-up and excuse to behave like total tossers when abroad, as for the national team supporters, well, what can I say?
 
Rorschach said:
Same. There was a lot of early reporting from journos trying to get in that the crowd control was a brickshow.
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If you're stuck in the middle of a crowd it's unlikely you'd have any idea of the overall picture and what's causing the issues.

It looks like there's enough blame to go around for UEFA, policing/crowd control and the fans. I doubt anyone is going to come out of it looking good.
 
thfcsteff said:
I’m sorry, dial what down?
I replied in a very reasonable fashion.
The only possible place I can see where you might have misunderstood the intention of my words is in the sentence ‘the response level you’re referring to was pathetic’…I was referring to UEFA/authorities on the ground. To be clear.

In the numbers you quote, you are obviously referring to Heysel and Hillsborough. I implore you (I really do) to please research both events a little more deeply than perhaps you already have. I will say of Heysel that it was a disgraceful tragedy which could’ve happened on dozens of occasions during the era. The venue itself was sadly the perfect facilitator of what happened, which does not excuse the actions but does go someway to explaining why it happened there that night.

I agree with proactive action when planned properly. However, Paris was another failure in UEFA’s cap. Not their first, from picking terrible venues to repeatedly failing to ensure implementation of their own protocols. I genuinely think you might want to look a little deeper into accounts of what happened on Saturday; the planning and conditions are the sort of thing that can actually cause deaths. I’d say we’re lucky some didn’t occur on Saturday (and grateful I should add, albeit I’d hope it isn’t necessary to say that).

All clubs have unsavory elements. We do too. I have been harassed by several (Chelsea, West Ham, Villa, Birmingham). I have never been harassed at Anfield or at the two finals I attended involving our clubs, so my experience does not compute with the reputation Much of it stems from Heysel and what that meant for British cubs in Europe. The reason I invited a PM conversation was not (as it appears you have inferred) meant to insult the integrity of your opinion, it was to try and save this from going on and forever in a public forum, as I am quite frankly genuinely alarmed at some of the things I have read here in the last 72 hours. HeyseI was disgraceful on many levels. I also stand by my assertion that anyone blaming Liverpool supporters for what happened has an agenda because it is (IMO) nonsense. Again for the sake of clarity, I am not addressing you or your posts in these comments.

FWIW, I think the tinkle-poor planning and tear gassing of innocent supporters should be treated as a surprise. We should expect, and demand, more from UEFA tournaments, despite their continual displays of disdain for supporters over sponsors and their own pockets.

Again, I believe everything I have written in reply to your comments has been both above the line and civil. There is only one person with whom I engage in uncivilized posts, and they come here for that sort of thing so I am occasionally happy to oblige/be reeled in.
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Sorry if i misinterpreted your post, it came across to me as aggressive and condescending.

First off my knowledge of the first ibrox disaster is sketchy in the extreme, but what i do know is that it wasn't a rangers game, it was an international between Scotland and England, one of those odd facts that often get over looked but has stuck in my head. So nothing to do with rangers fans.
My dad was at the second ibrox disaster, luckily not in that stand. Seemingly according to my dad the area of the disaster was well known a problem spot within the ground and many fans avoided it. Again not really the fans at fault, so i would have issues with the rangers fans being tarred with that brush.
However i have seen enough despicable behaviour from rangers supporters to know that there is a considerable sized element of them that are, well lets just say unsavoury.
My family all rangers supporters, i see the good and the bad.
Not that they are alone in that, celtic, Aberdeen and hibs are all similar and hearts not as bad, not far behind.
As i have stated elsewhere, these incidents are never as cut and dried as they first appear/are painted and i am aware that heysel and Hillsborough cannot be laid entirely at the door of Liverpool supporters.
It does not change the fact though that those incidents have involved Liverpool supporters and it would be a dereliction of care and duty not to take that into account when planning for matches such as this which could be a flash point.
Take your class action for example, if GHod forbid some poor soul did lose their life at one of these games do you not think that the first question asked is why did you not take into account the past occasions that people have been killed at games involving Liverpool?

Ps, heysel was very good for Scottish football, i got to see fantastic footballers who would never have come here if English clubs weren't banned from Europe.
Don’t mean to be flippant about such a devastating event, but i want to be clear that as much as I dislike Liverpool and their support i am not blind to the fact that like most clubs the vast majority of the support are decent people and different only from us in the colour of the shirt they wear.

Pps
I have been told by at least three rangers supporters that there was a feeling among the fans that they would be on their best behaviour in sevilla and no nonsense would be tolerated. They wanted to outdo the celtic support who had been highly praised for their behaviour in sevilla.
Strange attitude to me, you should always be on your best behaviour and policing yourselves.
 
DubSpur said:
If you're stuck in the middle of a crowd it's unlikely you'd have any idea of the overall picture and what's causing the issues.

It looks like there's enough blame to go around for UEFA, policing/crowd control and the fans. I doubt anyone is going to come out of it looking good.
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I don't know where these journos were reporting from (nor am I that bothered to check either) so they may not have been in the middle of a crowd. But certainly, if they were they would have an accurate picture of what was happening on the ground in the moment.
I'm sure a clearer overall picture will form in time but it seems to me even at this point most blame lies with the authorities. And even if some blame can be apportioned to the fans that is a lesser consideration. It is the responsibility of the organisers to plan for and handle likely and unlikely scenarios that could affect the safety of the fans and appears they have not done a good job on this.
 
Rorschach said:
I don't know where these journos were reporting from (nor am I that bothered to check either) so they may not have been in the middle of a crowd. But certainly, if they were they would have an accurate picture of what was happening on the ground in the moment.
I'm sure a clearer overall picture will form in time but it seems to me even at this point most blame lies with the authorities. And even if some blame can be apportioned to the fans that is a lesser consideration. It is the responsibility of the organisers to plan for and handle likely and unlikely scenarios that could affect the safety of the fans and appears they have not done a good job on this.
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I agree that the organisers should've done more. Those without tickets shouldn't have got that close to the ground.
But the ones using forgeries and without tickets are also to blame. If they hadn't turned up in thousands like that the chances are that there would've been no issues.

As I said, enough blame to go around.
 
thfcsteff said:
As should you, someone who lives by such myopia (in fairness to you I have been gaslit by far worse). And shame on you for not spotting the mistake. Here’s what you said.

<<They're the only 2 UEFA finals with reports of that happening on a large scale.>>

You’re simply wrong.
That isn’t a ‘conspiracy’ it’s a fact!
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This isn't how debating works.

If the information is so readily out there, please provide the evidence. If you can't back it up with evidence, why are you making the point?
 
Baleforce said:
The club could, not tell fans to travel if they don’t have a ticket.

The fans could, not travel unless they have a ticket sourced directly from the club.
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They shouldn't have had fan parks in Paris if they don't want fans to travel without a ticket. I also know plenty of Spurs fans who traveled to Madrid without a ticket when we got to the final. We celebrated it when we wanted to soak up the atmosphere.
 
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