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Transfer speculation

Just to add a further thought. How many of our signings from foreign leagues have been a success in Pochs time here? I can only think of Dier ( who is English anyway) and Son ( who wasn't an outright success in his first season) . I would prefer us to stick to players with PL pedigree - especially if we want them to have an immediate impact this season.

In the Poch era , just compare our successes from the PL/championship with those from foreign leagues.
 
Just a question, mate, in good faith - if Georgiou hadn't vaguely impressed (not even in an 'Alli nutmegging Modric' sense - just looked mostly competent) in a few meaningless pre-season games, and if it had been some other youngster like Jack Roles instead... would you have included him in that list of fantastic youngsters that apparently justify not spending anything on 'average' players?

At the end of that logic lies the Wenger strategy between 2006 and 2012 - don't buy a single player because it would compromise Amaury Bischoff's career, or set Emmanuel Frimpong's prospects back, or damage the chance to afford playing time to some other Scum rando (Denilson, Henri Lansbury, Sanchez Watt, Nacer Barazite) who looks vaguely competent at first, then flounders hopelessly and is ultimately quietly sold off to Arsenal Tula in the Russian league. It's a strategy that worked so well that almost none of Arsenal's vaunted youth made it through, their first-team stars all left in a hurry because Wenger thought having the likes of Gilles Sunu as their backup was a splendid idea and they flounded in 4th feeling sorry for themselves - *until* Wenger started splashing the cash on genuinely good players (Sanchez, Ozil and co), and *lo and behold!*, they actually started winning things again.

At the very least, the excuse one can make for Wenger is that he had no choice because his hands were tied by the library. Yet, it irks me that people propose adopting essentially the same approach not just on the pragmatic level, but essentially on nothing more than blind faith that this time, our own academy can provide 100% of the players we need - that no one will prove below our level, or prove otherwise unable to replace the likes of Eriksen, Alli, Kane and Toby, or prove just unsuited to our team and our approach.

Onomah, Winks, KWP, CCV, even Georgiou and Jack Roles...these are talented youngsters who deserve and will get playing time. If not here, then elsewhere - at Villa in Onomah's case, for example. But there is a wide gap between saying that we should blood our youngsters where possible and saying that we should avoid spending money on 'average' players because KWP, Winks, Onomah and Georgiou 'could be' major players for us two or three years down the line. If Eriksen leaves because we flounder around with insufficient squad cover for a season or two....if Kane leaves, if Toby leaves, if Lloris leaves...the opportunity cost of ignoring those 'average' signings to trust in players who won't be ready for a long time, if at all, will be sorely felt. Both by us, and by the youngsters themselves - the damage done from a blind introduction without safety nets or alternatives to ease the pressure on them could harm them every bit as much as it could harm us.

And out of those players I've listed Toby, Lloris and Eriksen weren't born and bred youth - they were bought. The complaint of 'not enough talented players on the market' gets thrown around every summer, without fail, to justify the continually increasing spending that goes on. Yet, of our spine of players - hell, of our first eleven (Lloris, Trippier, Toby, Jan, Rose, Wanyama, Dembele, Eriksen, Alli, Son, Kane) only Kane is actually an academy product. All the rest were bought, many recently. It isn't fair to justify a lack of spending with the youth reasoning, given that reality - imo.

I mentioned Georgiou because he is a player that has grabbed his opportunity to impress. Yes you can swap his name for another youth player, my point is that under this manager if a young player shows enough talent, drive and willingness to improve then he will be given a place within the squad.

Sanchez and Ozil were signed as first team players, they were signed to fill glaring holes in the team.......at the moment our first eleven is good enough to match any team.

Im not against signing players, not like Gutter who also thinks Poch is anti transfers, all im saying is that there are very few players out there who are better than our first 11 and at the same time affordable

also Poch likes to keep a settled 11 for the PL, with only the full backs at times rotated........knowing this, which players of decent quality will want to join and mostly play a part in cup games if at all

Barkley is an interesting one. He seems to be willing to join and fight for game time but we will have to see how much Everton are prepared to accept for his transfer because the current 50 mill for an inconsistent talent with 1 year left on his contract is absolutely absurd and demonstrates the over inflated prices i alluded to earlier.

i said very early in this window that i wanted us to at least get Sessegnon from Fulham and Bruma from Galatasaray, both linked heavily at the end of the last season Affordable and different to what we have in the squad at the moment. We probably failed because Leipzig offered immediate first team football to Bruma and Sessegnon the same by staying at Fulham for another year

We should always be looking to sign good quality players at the right price to fill holes in the first 11 and the squad if needed. I would have loved us to have signed Mane last summer, we didnt but look how well Son did with Lamela out. You will say Son is an example of having good quality on the bench ready to step in, not just some random inexperienced youngster. i say we can have the best of both worlds. Our first 11 is great, after that if we can have 5 or 6 players good players ready to step in when needed and who are able to cover more than one position (like a Dier or Son can do. Dier of course is first 11, but you know what i mean) AND give 5 or 6 youngsters a genuine place in the squad then it will be the ideal scenario
 
So how many players do you think we will bring in by the close of the window?

I think 2.

I think it'll be 3: a RB, Barkley and a CF/attacker-type. We'll then need to cross our fingers that our CBs come through the season unscathed as we lack depth there (CCV is unproven so is a huge risk to count him as an option)
 
So how many players do you think we will bring in by the close of the window?

I think 2.

I'm confident that it will be 3.

Barkley 25-ish (wish it was Kovacic but that's not happening)
An athletic, speedy right back for 20-ish million (Pereira, Henrichs, Toljan, Cancelo -> in that order)
3rd Choice Keeper from Southampton

With the possibility of a hardworking/pacey versatile forward if they can make the right deal.
Candidates: Keita Balde, Meyer, Gray, Sancho, Simeone, etc.
If we can get one of those guys, then they can loan Sissoko to Turkey. If not, he stays (and I cry).

If that's our summer business, I love it (even though I don't love Barkley). On paper, this looks like the strongest squad we've ever had, especially if Lamela ever comes back.

GK: Lloris (Vorm/SFC guy)
RB: Trippier (New RB/KWP)
LB: Rose (Davies/KWP)

RCB: Dier (CCV)
CB: Alderweireld (Dier)
LCB: Vertonghen (Wimmer, Davies)

CM 1: Wanyama (Winks/Dier)
CM2: Dembele (Barkley)

AM1: Eriksen (Barkley, Lamela, Edwards)

Support Striker: Dele (Son, Lamela, New FW or Sissoko)

ST: Kane (Janssen)
 
RCB: Dier (CCV)
CB: Alderweireld (Dier)
LCB: Vertonghen (Wimmer, Davies)

CM 1: Wanyama (Winks/Dier)

This is the big weakness in that squad. There's so much double-counting - Davies cant play CB if he's filling in for Rose, Dier cant play in three positions at once...and thats before you get to the fact that Winks isnt a DM and CCV is unproven (and the odd occassion he has played, he's looked cumbersome).

For 4 positions, you have just 5 senior players (Dier, TA, JV, Wimmer, VW) who aren't also covering other spots. I get that CBs can probably play more games per season that other positions, but we're very susceptible to injuries and suspensions before we're forced to changed formation from 3-5-2. I dont see us getting another CB in this summer - best bet might be a right-back who is like Davies and can cover CB. I'm not familiar enough with the various RBs who we're been linked with though to know whether any of them can play CB
 
This is the big weakness in that squad. There's so much double-counting - Davies cant play CB if he's filling in for Rose, Dier cant play in three positions at once...and thats before you get to the fact that Winks isnt a DM and CCV is unproven (and the odd occassion he has played, he's looked cumbersome).

For 4 positions, you have just 5 senior players (Dier, TA, JV, Wimmer, VW) who aren't also covering other spots. I get that CBs can probably play more games per season that other positions, but we're very susceptible to injuries and suspensions before we're forced to changed formation from 3-5-2. I dont see us getting another CB in this summer - best bet might be a right-back who is like Davies and can cover CB. I'm not familiar enough with the various RBs who we're been linked with though to know whether any of them can play CB

It's why I wanted Maguire or Gibson

Both had good seasons and are footballing centre backs
 
but arent they at an age and time in career where they want to be first choice starters

I would have thought you could persuade them on the basis that our preferred formation is 3 at the back and we only have 3 CBs today (counting Dier as a DM). Tell them its them vs Wimmer for the 3rd CB spot.

Wonder whether we'll pull a rabbit out of the hat, like that young Ajax CB for instance
 
This is the big weakness in that squad. There's so much double-counting - Davies cant play CB if he's filling in for Rose, Dier cant play in three positions at once...and thats before you get to the fact that Winks isnt a DM and CCV is unproven (and the odd occassion he has played, he's looked cumbersome).

For 4 positions, you have just 5 senior players (Dier, TA, JV, Wimmer, VW) who aren't also covering other spots. I get that CBs can probably play more games per season that other positions, but we're very susceptible to injuries and suspensions before we're forced to changed formation from 3-5-2. I dont see us getting another CB in this summer - best bet might be a right-back who is like Davies and can cover CB. I'm not familiar enough with the various RBs who we're been linked with though to know whether any of them can play CB

The "double counting" is the literal point of the way we built our squad. Since he's come to the club, Poch has gone on and on about buying versatile players, and he's constantly going on about all of the different roles they can cover. Of course, Davies can't play LCB when he's covering for Rose, which is why he's our THIRD LCB and Kevin Wimmer exists. It's also one of the reasons why he's played so many more games than Trippier, who can only play in one position.

"For 4 positions you have just 5 senior players" — I'm assuming you are talking about CB and DM. Depending on how we line up (and Poch looks likely to play a ton of 4-3-2-1 this season and always has), that is often only three roles (2CM, 1 holding midfield). For those spots, Poch can pick from Dier, TBA, JV, Wimmer, and Wanyama, or Dembele or Winks in a pinch. Alternatively, if a couple of them were injured, he could easily revert to only using three of them, and adding an attacker like Son or Lamela into the mix, which he did many, many times last season and on Saturday. Also, if Rose is healthy, he can easily slide Davies over to LCB and play Rose at wing back.

Adding another body in there is likely only going to overcrowd things, especially if that player is going to want first team minutes next season. It's no surprise that the only real CB we've been linked with is Foyth, who was supposed to be a long way from ready. The man has plenty of defensive options, except at RB.
 
The "double counting" is the literal point of the way we built our squad. Since he's come to the club, Poch has gone on and on about buying versatile players, and he's constantly going on about all of the different roles they can cover. Of course, Davies can't play LCB when he's covering for Rose, which is why he's our THIRD LCB and Kevin Wimmer exists. It's also one of the reasons why he's played so many more games than Trippier, who can only play in one position.

"For 4 positions you have just 5 senior players" — I'm assuming you are talking about CB and DM. Depending on how we line up (and Poch looks likely to play a ton of 4-3-2-1 this season and always has), that is often only three roles (2CM, 1 holding midfield). For those spots, Poch can pick from Dier, TBA, JV, Wimmer, and Wanyama, or Dembele or Winks in a pinch. Alternatively, if a couple of them were injured, he could easily revert to only using three of them, and adding an attacker like Son or Lamela into the mix, which he did many, many times last season and on Saturday. Also, if Rose is healthy, he can easily slide Davies over to LCB and play Rose at wing back.

Adding another body in there is likely only going to overcrowd things, especially if that player is going to want first team minutes next season. It's no surprise that the only real CB we've been linked with is Foyth, who was supposed to be a long way from ready. The man has plenty of defensive options, except at RB.
Exactly.
It's more like 27/28 players for 60 games (that includes a few kids for the cups)
 
The "double counting" is the literal point of the way we built our squad. Since he's come to the club, Poch has gone on and on about buying versatile players, and he's constantly going on about all of the different roles they can cover. Of course, Davies can't play LCB when he's covering for Rose, which is why he's our THIRD LCB and Kevin Wimmer exists. It's also one of the reasons why he's played so many more games than Trippier, who can only play in one position.

"For 4 positions you have just 5 senior players" — I'm assuming you are talking about CB and DM. Depending on how we line up (and Poch looks likely to play a ton of 4-3-2-1 this season and always has), that is often only three roles (2CM, 1 holding midfield). For those spots, Poch can pick from Dier, TBA, JV, Wimmer, and Wanyama, or Dembele or Winks in a pinch. Alternatively, if a couple of them were injured, he could easily revert to only using three of them, and adding an attacker like Son or Lamela into the mix, which he did many, many times last season and on Saturday. Also, if Rose is healthy, he can easily slide Davies over to LCB and play Rose at wing back.

Adding another body in there is likely only going to overcrowd things, especially if that player is going to want first team minutes next season. It's no surprise that the only real CB we've been linked with is Foyth, who was supposed to be a long way from ready. The man has plenty of defensive options, except at RB.

Versatility is great, but you can still only play each player in one position. Similar to how Lamela has been out and then Son broke his wrist, those two injuries could just have easily happened to, say, Dier and Toby. Then we have to play Vertonghen and Wimmer at CB and Wanyama at DM - there are no other viable alternatives for a PL or CL game (perhaps you might look at other options for a domestic cup game). If that happens in the busy period of Sept/Oct/Nov, then it could hit our season badly. Away in Moscow on Wed? Sod them they need to play in the PL game at the weekend. Thats not right for a top 4 team....
 
Versatility is great, but you can still only play each player in one position. Similar to how Lamela has been out and then Son broke his wrist, those two injuries could just have easily happened to, say, Dier and Toby. Then we have to play Vertonghen and Wimmer at CB and Wanyama at DM - there are no other viable alternatives for a PL or CL game (perhaps you might look at other options for a domestic cup game). If that happens in the busy period of Sept/Oct/Nov, then it could hit our season badly. Away in Moscow on Wed? Sod them they need to play in the PL game at the weekend. Thats not right for a top 4 team....

OK, so what do you recommend that Poch/Levy does? Does he spend the 25 million that you need to get someone like Gibson from Boro (who I don't think is that good) to be our emergency CB? How many games will he actually we play? We know from experience that Poch will play Jan and Toby (either in a two or a three with Dier) together in every game he possibly can. And if there's an injury to either of them, he will play simply play Dier in a four.

Look at last season, we lost TBA for a huge chunk of games and Wimmer basically still couldn't get a game. And why would you do that if you were Gibson, Maguire, or whoever else you'd want us to sign? This is the same problem that Poch talked about with Morata. Guys don't really want to come to a team to sit on the bench. Look at how frustrated Wimmer was last season...
 
Versatility is great, but you can still only play each player in one position. Similar to how Lamela has been out and then Son broke his wrist, those two injuries could just have easily happened to, say, Dier and Toby. Then we have to play Vertonghen and Wimmer at CB and Wanyama at DM - there are no other viable alternatives for a PL or CL game (perhaps you might look at other options for a domestic cup game). If that happens in the busy period of Sept/Oct/Nov, then it could hit our season badly. Away in Moscow on Wed? Sod them they need to play in the PL game at the weekend. Thats not right for a top 4 team....
He's got a point there, we could do with more players while double-counting, hopefully players with different positions.

Sent from my SM-T819Y using Fapatalk
 
OK, so what do you recommend that Poch/Levy does? Does he spend the 25 million that you need to get someone like Gibson from Boro (who I don't think is that good) to be our emergency CB? How many games will he actually we play? We know from experience that Poch will play Jan and Toby (either in a two or a three with Dier) together in every game he possibly can. And if there's an injury to either of them, he will play simply play Dier in a four.

Look at last season, we lost TBA for a huge chunk of games and Wimmer basically still couldn't get a game. And why would you do that if you were Gibson, Maguire, or whoever else you'd want us to sign? This is the same problem that Poch talked about with Morata. Guys don't really want to come to a team to sit on the bench. Look at how frustrated Wimmer was last season...

As I said above, its the big weakness and vulnerability in the squad - relying on TA/JV is great whilst they're fit, but two injuries/suspensions at CB or DM then we're in a tough position. So you have the option of (i) accepting that vulnerability and recognising it as one where if we were to get a couple injuries in those positions at the wrong time it could screw our season or (ii) add another CB and give him enough game time to keep him happy and on-form.
Personally I would do latter. We could play 60 games this season so that's probably say 160-180 CB starting slots by the time we play a back 4 some times and I think enough to keep an extra CB happy. For example, say TA starts 45-50, JV plays 45-50, new CB plays 30, Dier plays 20-25 (in addition to a similar number at DM) and Wimmer plays 20-25. Thats in addition to international games which is another 5-10 during the season and then the World Cup next summer. To me that would be a better solution and avoid a significant downside risk which could bugger our season
 
Watford are close to agreeing a deal - thought to be worth about £18.5m - to sign Burnley striker Andre Gray.

The Hornets have already had two bids rejected for the 26-year-old, who is in the last 12 months of his contract.

Gray, who joined Burnley from Brentford for £9m in 2015, scored nine goals last season, despite a four-game ban for homophobic tweets he sent in 2012.

He was a key part of Burnley's 2016 Championship-winning team and attracted interest after turning down a new deal.
 
Watford are close to agreeing a deal - thought to be worth about £18.5m - to sign Burnley striker Andre Gray.

The Hornets have already had two bids rejected for the 26-year-old, who is in the last 12 months of his contract.

Gray, who joined Burnley from Brentford for £9m in 2015, scored nine goals last season, despite a four-game ban for homophobic tweets he sent in 2012.

He was a key part of Burnley's 2016 Championship-winning team and attracted interest after turning down a new deal.

Good signing. Id have him as a Kane back up. Different kind of striker but effective in other ways
 
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