*** Tottenham Hotspur Vs Forest *** OMT

[Welshspur60]

If I had to place a bet on where we'll finish, at this point I'd probably say 14th. Finally getting the likes of Kuluševski and Maddison back might lift us a few places higher (I don't honestly see Solanke having a major impact on things) and .there's always the hope we might bring one or two in in January that aren't just more sack-the-manager fodder, but right now, I'm thinking around about 14th. There's plenty more horror shows like today's in this lot, if you ask me.

An up to speed Kulu will be a big help. Not sure we will see Maddes this season. Always thought an ACL rebuild was a full year out?
Just out of curiosity, are there many top players who have had thatbop and came back as good as before?

 

[thfcsteff]

Here's the thing.

In ALL the 'we must have patience' discussions, the bit which is NOT ever considered is WHAT we're having patience FOR.

If a supporter wants a stronger, better version of non-possession, counter-attacking, wing-driven football (aka Brentord+) then power to them and their desires; he would most certainly deserve patience.

If a supporter wants us to play a more possesion-based game which involves passing and moving in the 'need a passing 8' model, then they should be aware that the SIGNS are Thomas Frank does not want to play that style.

If a supporter thinks the return of Deki will make a large difference to the season, I think it is worth looking at what evidence there is this will happen.

It is about so much more than simply 'doing the right thing' or 'whether we're winning or losing'. Nothing is ever that direct obviously, but I do think it is worth considering the above before arriving at conclusions about the manager's status.

 

[thfcsteff]

I don't care whether he wants one, I WANT one!

Just like with Ange I wanted one then and he foolishly decided he didn't need one or a 6. Whether the manager thinks we need a passing 8 or not the football we are trying to play REQUIRES one. Period.

Now Frank might be a madman and might try and play this way and without a passing 8. This will fail and he will be sacked. Simple.

Important differential here. I (and it appears you too) believe football needs passers/passing 8s. I don't see anything in the system he appears to favour which necessarily requires that.

 

[Gutter Boy]

An up to speed Kulu will be a big help. Not sure we will see Maddes this season. Always thought an ACL rebuild was a full year out?
Just out of curiosity, are there many top players who have had thatbop and came back as good as before?

The usual is 6-9 months. Bentancur and Dragusin seemed to take longer for some reason.

Van Nistelrooy, Baggio, Roy Keane, Xavi, Totti, Ibrahimovic, Shearer, Del Piero and van Dijk are a few who had them early or mid career and had no noticeable negative effect.

 

[DubaiSpur]

In ALL the 'we must have patience' discussions, the bit which is NOT ever considered is WHAT we're having patience FOR.

If a supporter wants a stronger, better version of non-possession, counter-attacking, wing-driven football (aka Brentord+) then power to them and their desires; he would most certainly deserve patience.

If a supporter wants us to play a more possesion-based game which involves passing and moving in the 'need a passing 8' model, then they should be aware that the SIGNS are Thomas Frank does not want to play that style.

Well, the caveat here is that supporters often think they want a possession-heavy style of play, but then moan when we implement one.

I remember the jibes thrown AVB's way for prioritising possession - I don't think I've ever seen more use of the word 'sterile', outside of a laboratory. Same for late-stage Poch, when people would bemoan our tippy-tappy, sideways passing.

The early and peak Poch sides did *not* rely on possession. They could certainly use it to their advantage, but the biggest strength those sides had was their absolutely monstrous press, which absolutely smothered teams in an era before everyone adapted to high pressing.

In this style, passing for passing's sake wasn't really a thing. In many cases, passing it around was done with the hope that we would lose it, because then we could counterpress and hopefully win it in a high area with the opposition out of position.

So, folks need to be clear on what they want, too - it's easy to say Frank should prioritise more possession, without understanding what that means, and how much that goes against what even our greatest manager since Bill Nick (imo) wanted to do tactically.

 

[thfcsteff]

Well, the caveat here is that supporters often think they want a possession-heavy style of play, but then moan when we implement one.

I remember the jibes thrown AVB's way for prioritising possession - I don't think I've ever seen more use of the word 'sterile', outside of a laboratory. Same for late-stage Poch, when people would bemoan our tippy-tappy, sideways passing.

The early and peak Poch sides did *not* rely on possession. They could certainly use it to their advantage, but the biggest strength those sides had was their absolutely monstrous press, which absolutely smothered teams in an era before everyone adapted to high pressing.

In this style, passing for passing's sake wasn't really a thing. In many cases, passing it around was done with the hope that we would lose it, because then we could counterpress and hopefully win it in a high area with the opposition out of position.

So, folks need to be clear on what they want, too - it's easy to say Frank should prioritise more possession, without understanding what that means, and how much that goes against what even our greatest manager since Bill Nick (imo) wanted to do tactically.

I'll be clear on my part.

Yes, we did use young aggressive pressing, but we also had a lot of possession in games and (critically) players who could both play a passing game too.
The high-press was a key in those early days, yet once we got the ball we kept it and used it. Very similar to Emirates Marketing Project in their prime.

What I want is something akin to peak-Poch-meets-later-Poch. Which is absolutely possession football along with an aggressive press. Ironically, the reason we did not manage to ever win the league under him is precisely because he could never break down the 'smaller' sides, who would sit deep and exploit that part of our game/challenge us to pick the lock; Eriksen could sometimes.

Sir Bill? He (like Arthur Rowe) wanted fast, fluid quick touch football built through midfield. Now, you can say that isn't necessarily 'keeping the ball', but it is possessing it and using the bloody thing to entertain, to attack, to score goals and try to win football. So in THAT sense it is possession football. It is not dissimilar at all to what Poch wanted, and did.

Poch's average possession stats were 57% with us (average stats generated by some ai thing).

Postecoglu's possession average was 60-62% (average stats generated by some ai thing).

Frank with Brentford in the Prem was approximately 41 to 48% possession (average stats generated by some ai thing). With us it is currently 53%.
We are currently averaging 9.5 shots per game, our lowest in the Prem since 2003/04.

There are doubtless more of these things to be found and used whichever way anyone wants (context is crucial for sure)...