***Tottenham Hotspur vs Chelsea***, Premier League, Nov 1st 2025 at White Hart Lane

[Gazza Dazzla]

Can we also pls remember we have beaten them 8 times over 400yrs, with teams better than this and we still come up short.
It's annoying but hey what's new

They simply want it more, 1 offs, whatever, but over such a long period of time when for probably half of it we’ve actually been The better side, to have this record? Instituatioalized apathy for the fixture, unacceptable,

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

How can you say more refinement wouldn’t have made a difference! It’s like saying us being better wouldn’t have helped

No is, could become. 22. New country. New league. A little bit light weight. Certainly no substitute for a 29 year old with bags of experience. How was Maddison at 22?

Why? Why did we do this? Because we lacked players able to turn with the ball. And those that might are not in a flow and confident.


It takes time to refine and develop a side. There are structural problems. We need to improve midfield and attack. Our attack is all new, and has no consistency. Hopefully Kudus and Muani can be a foundation to build off now. But idk who with - and neither does Frank yet.

I think Frank should try to solidify Sarr in there. I think he could work well with Kudus and Muani. We need a steady team that can gel. And we need t

I actually think Xavi has played at a higher level than Madders did earlier in his career, and proven himself earlier at that standard.

But regardless, I think there’s a world in which our coach has made different decisions which actually get the best out of Xavi, or at the very least better than what we’ve seen. But Xavi has been playing in a team that has no plan in possession, and has to live on scraps and flick ons.

Frank could play a more offensive 4-3-3, with Xavi, Sarr and Palinha in midfield. He could trust the players more in possession. Then we would see players who could turn with the ball and be more confident with it.

I think that what we’re seeing is because Frank is asking for it, it is too obvious and a repeated pattern over a number of games at this point. You can see it in the shape we take up in the first phase, the decisions we make about where to pass. You can see it in the pass maps. What we’re seeing is what is being asked for. I say again and I’m trying to be annoying, but I genuinely don’t know how you refine it.

We could play more through the middle, on the half turn, right now if we wanted. We could use Xavi more in a way that gets the best out of him. We could play Sarr or Bergval deeper. But we’re not. These are choices. And the performances are the consequences of those choices. The results are the consequences of the choices when we aren’t bailed out with our great set piece game.

 

[Kandi1977]

If anyone hasn't watched this yet, it explains really well the issue we have. The midfielders are unwilling and/or incapable of playing the ball FORWARDS. It's just sideways and backwards, and we end up just playing the ball from side to side.

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[thfcsteff]

If anyone hasn't watched this yet, it explains really well the issue we have. The midfielders are unwilling and/or incapable of playing the ball FORWARDS. It's just sideways and backwards, and we end up just playing the ball from side to side.

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...which kills players like Xavi and Kudus...

 

[Kandi1977]

...which kills players like Xavi and Kudus...

Yes, because they only receive the ball in a straight line from the full back, with their back to the goal, and rarely have anyone to play it to, other than back to the full back, who again has no one to play it to, other than sideways to the CB or CM, or back to the GK.

This is the pass map for Bents and Palhinha vs Villa. It's shocking!

 

[parj]

Was thinking about this game a bit more and I think Muani and Kudus actually had good games for their team, just maybe not themselves.

The amount of times they were both getting back and sitting behind the ball, they would have been knackered making runs for no reason, only to just have to run back and defend.

That's a thankless task.

There was no out ball options. Immediately we would be pressed because there was no space. Caceido pressing towards the edge of the area for their goal shows the impact of playing with everyone behind the ball... The opposition press in dangerous areas

 

[parj]

The team should be able to transition and move out with possession.

You want to pin it on the manager. Yet we were losing to the chavs at home under Postecoglou when he was playing more attackers!

I don't blame the manager for losing specifically to Chelsea, but the identity is the manager. We were gung ho under Ange, and bar Everton, in the last 4 or 5 matches we have been submissive - that's the identity TF is imposing

 

[parj]

I actually think Xavi has played at a higher level than Madders did earlier in his career, and proven himself earlier at that standard.

But regardless, I think there’s a world in which our coach has made different decisions which actually get the best out of Xavi, or at the very least better than what we’ve seen. But Xavi has been playing in a team that has no plan in possession, and has to live on scraps and flick ons.

Frank could play a more offensive 4-3-3, with Xavi, Sarr and Palinha in midfield. He could trust the players more in possession. Then we would see players who could turn with the ball and be more confident with it.

I think that what we’re seeing is because Frank is asking for it, it is too obvious and a repeated pattern over a number of games at this point. You can see it in the shape we take up in the first phase, the decisions we make about where to pass. You can see it in the pass maps. What we’re seeing is what is being asked for. I say again and I’m trying to be annoying, but I genuinely don’t know how you refine it.

We could play more through the middle, on the half turn, right now if we wanted. We could use Xavi more in a way that gets the best out of him. We could play Sarr or Bergval deeper. But we’re not. These are choices. And the performances are the consequences of those choices. The results are the consequences of the choices when we aren’t bailed out with our great set piece game.

I think the other thing that's noticeable is Bergvall is not having any impact on the team. We seem to be pushing him higher up the pitch instead of letting him be the energy in recovering the ball, and leading the transition. We cannot transition right now.

We are really making Xavi, Bergvall, Sarr, Gray, look pretty poor at the moment, and the knock on effect is the attack has no service

 

[Lakey]

What’s your explanation for it? Seems clear the expectation at home creates pressure and undermines us playing better.

They are playing to the system dictated by the manager, or if they are not then the problem is bigger.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think the other thing that's noticeable is Bergvall is not having any impact on the team. We seem to be pushing him higher up the pitch instead of letting him be the energy in recovering the ball, and leading the transition. We cannot transition right now.

We are really making Xavi, Bergvall, Sarr, Gray, look pretty poor at the moment, and the knock on effect is the attack has no service

Agreed!!!

 

[SpurMeUp]

They are playing to the system dictated by the manager, or if they are not then the problem is bigger.

And us playing better is what therefore? The team playing to the system only away?

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

And us playing better is what therefore? The team playing to the system only away?

I think it’s pretty clear that the system we are employing is better suited to games where the opposition feels some onus to take the initiative against us, and therefore our glaring lack of plan in possession isn’t as obvious?

I will give it that we were better against Villa than today. I will also grant Frank that he’s never before managed a team that generated such a low XG. Clearly he’s not asking for us to be this bad. At the same time, it’s clear the players are following his instructions, and it’s clear the selections he is making, particularly in midfield.

Maybe in another world we press them high better and get goals from those breakaways. But clearly Chelsea prepared to work around it. We just had nothing. The disheartening thing is that, under Poch for example, it felt like he considered himself to be part of the elite level of coaches that would enjoy the chess match against the other big 6. So these games would always be moves and counter moves, both within the games themselves as well as from one match to the other. Constant adjustments that sometimes worked on our favor and sometimes didn’t. But it felt like we were in the game, in a macro and micro sense. What we saw today was one plan, and when it didn’t work because they went ahead, we had nothing. We were miles off. It looks like we simply don’t train possession, because we have no idea what to do when we actually have to make the game. That’s really concerning.

 

[metalgear]

If anyone hasn't watched this yet, it explains really well the issue we have. The midfielders are unwilling and/or incapable of playing the ball FORWARDS. It's just sideways and backwards, and we end up just playing the ball from side to side.

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in the chelsea game caicdeo had more impact overall than both bentancur and palhinha

 

[Mosquito_Coasting]

Boring game between two boring teams but we deservedly lost. They won it in central midfield but they spent 200m pounds there on two players while we have to take punts on the very expensive rung below that level like Xavi who may well come good but didn't look a natural fit for the league (he will need somewhere near a Modric level spirit to succeed here).

The only players we can get to immediately improve the team seem to be under special circumstances like Kudus or MGW (I think we'd be doing really well if we had got him). We really miss Kulu because he's so physically strong with the creativity. I don't think Maddison will ever be able to play more than 25 games a season from now on but will be good to have him fit for spells.

Think Muani looked pretty good, better than Richarlison for holding the ball up anyway. We really miss Solanke too. When/if we have Solanke Muani Kulu and Kudus fit we will be able to hold the ball up much better and Frank does seem to want to go long a lot. I don't mind ugly winning football and the Premier League is going in that direction generally so maybe we have a good manager for the way it's trending?

 

[metalgear]

I think the other thing that's noticeable is Bergvall is not having any impact on the team. We seem to be pushing him higher up the pitch instead of letting him be the energy in recovering the ball, and leading the transition. We cannot transition right now.

We are really making Xavi, Bergvall, Sarr, Gray, look pretty poor at the moment, and the knock on effect is the attack has no service

its a mess in midfield - we have 4 players just chasing down the ball like schoolkids with no sense of structure. the result is often when we do get the ball, we have too many players close to the ball and none to play out to. however there is always a striker waiting up front but the preference is to go backwards or sideways.

we lack a mastermind or leadership in midfield and sadly the senior players like paulinha and bentancur lack that.

 

[metalgear]

Was thinking about this game a bit more and I think Muani and Kudus actually had good games for their team, just maybe not themselves.

The amount of times they were both getting back and sitting behind the ball, they would have been knackered making runs for no reason, only to just have to run back and defend.

That's a thankless task.

There was no out ball options. Immediately we would be pressed because there was no space. Caceido pressing towards the edge of the area for their goal shows the impact of playing with everyone behind the ball... The opposition press in dangerous areas

caicedo's football intelligence is underrated. he's like a shark... only pouncing when he smells blood and goes all the way. both efficient and effective.

 

[metalgear]

I thought the team put up a good fight despite lots of questions about the performance
Lots of fight and even TF looked frustrated and disappointed at the end
We played better than last season - so an improvement. And Chelsea scored only through a mixup between Xavi and VDV.

Vicario, Kudus and Muani were excellent
I'd love to see Gray in the midfield soon.

 

[thfcsteff]

Regardless of any disagreements with folks like @SpurMeUp, I just want to be clear that I appreciate and respect the ability to discuss and digest such frustrating days with everyone. We all want the same thing in the end.
Here's to better days for us and TF, here's to this forum where we can debate.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

If anyone hasn't watched this yet, it explains really well the issue we have. The midfielders are unwilling and/or incapable of playing the ball FORWARDS. It's just sideways and backwards, and we end up just playing the ball from side to side.

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I’d like to know how anyone could retort this analysis to be honest. I think it’s spot on because it’s backed up with the clear evidence that we see in repeated games now:

 

[braineclipse]

Both "gifted" chances in the first half including the goal came as a result of us trying to be a bit more ambitious on the ball, not just hoofing it.

We also see how much we struggle when we have to take the initiative and attack. We struggle to attack well, lose the ball and get countered on.

First goal is always important in football, but it's absolutely vital to us where we are now. If we can keep playing a "keep it tight" strategy we can look quite good. If we're forced to take the initiative against a good team we struggle.

Made this point before, but a significant part of our defensive solidity is a result of us being really risk averse on the ball. And we see when we try to change that it comes at a defensive cost.

To me a clear and predictable problem resulting from focusing on defending and set pieces first and foremost.