Tim Sherwood…gone \o/

[Jordinho]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Last season we sat back and let Scholes rack up sideways passes. This time we let them put in **** crosses that we cleared easily. Seems like crosses is Moyes' plan. Stats say they've put in a total of 530 crosses in 20 games, 108 of them successful.

 

[lurker of old]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Well done Mr Sherwood. A win at Old Trafford is a big achievement, even if we were helped by Mr Webb this time (helped by the ref at Old Trafford, now that is a sign of changing times!).
Interesting to see if we buy another striker in Jan, as we can't expect Adebayor to play out of his skin for the whole of the rest of the season.
I take the debate about how we are to compete with the wealthier clubs, needing a system etc but if Sherwood can get the best out of the players at his disposal, then we can't ask for more. Whether elite level football is simple or complex, is for others to say, but success at Spurs is about maximising the "goals for" column, rather than minimising the goals against. In that regard the Chairman got it right. Let's hope Tim continues to give our Spurs their swagger back.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yesterday we adapted during the game... Started a clear 4-4-2, Ade dropped back after 15 mins to support the midfield and we were almost playing 4-5-1 in defence and 4-3-3 in attack!!!

At the end we played a 4-2-3-1 system

That's how I saw it and it was great flexibility from the team which impressed me. I don't think out last manager would have let the team adapt mid and and arguably woukdnt have played the players who could so that

 

[Raziel]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

A few more thoughts on some of the last few pages

Re other managers

- SAF was a bully, last of his kind really, got away with it because of his stature/club, tactically switched it up a lot, played younger players on front end of season, experienced on back-end. Used assistant and specific coaches for actually coaching work
- Wenger has a system but no plan B (hence the earlier comment about not worrying too much about opponents)
- Mourinho plays each opponent, but has a specific style heavily reliant on a shielded back 4 not conceding (classic Cheat$ki side with Makelele)

Re Scara's choices of A/B/C, not sure it's that simple, and I'm not sure it's just about a "system" by itself

- System's are useful for buying the right players and having sub/youth players being able to step in and be familiar with exactly what they are supposed to be doing.
- That said, facilities (training ground), youth investments, nutrition, medical staff, scouting, media/promotion/PR are all part of what is needed to make the club more successful and have an edge on clubs that may spend more.

Re the lying or playing dumb, maybe its neither

- Players like Dawson, Walker, Lennon, Bentaleb (mostly British) and Ade have responded well to TS, maybe he knows they need to be "told" the game is simple, just like the british public media "want" to be told the game is simple. Prepare them with the right drills, setup the team in the right way (counter the opponent, ala BofL's post) but instruct the players that it's simple.
- In that way it is very much like Harry, HR always played that "simple, don't overthink" card, but clearly had a little bit more tactical thought than that.

Question for me re TS is, beyond 4-4-2/4-3-3 is he going to bring any specialist conditioning/nutrition/additional areas to work on, beyond right setup for right personnel approach?

 

[chancer]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/tottenhams-win-over-manchester-united-proves-tim-sherwood-is-happy-to-switch-systems--unlike-his-predecessor-andre-villasboas-9034548.html

Sherwood switched to something resembling a 4-2-3-1 late on to protect the lead

So: Score some goals with your attacking opening formation, then tighten up a bit, but still with personnel/shape to counter if needs be. Trust the talent of your £25m+ strikers, the dynamism of two of England's most promising FB's and hope that your ball-playing CB - who may be prone to the odd error - can start a counter that gets a goal. Rely on the ability of France's No.1 and captain to make saves, assume that high-quality players like Dembele and Eriksen in the middle can control the ball, pass it to a white shirt, and move. Hope for breaks with set pieces or long-range shots. Tell your subs exactly what they have to do when they go on, and trust you have them prepared properly to listen and execute. Assume Ramsey did the drills properly, Steffan got the lads mentally right, and Les did his mentoring job.

I'm not a tactics guy, but the longer I watch football the more I subscribe to the John Giles/Brian Clough (names someone mentioned earlier) old school that keeping it simple is correct. The above description of what Sherwood essentially did is so laughably obvious you're basically saying nothing more than: "Play football well and be smart." And so, here we are.

BTW, did anyone notice the big hug and big smiles between Sherwood and Ramsey at final whistle? Those smiles looked like what they were saying to each other was: "The plan worked!" I suspect that Ramsey and Tactical Temporary Tracksuit Tim (and maybe Les and Freund) have a crafty little tactical planning process in place, and a mean way of teaching it on the training pitch.

Crafty Tactical Temporary Tracksuit Bit-of-a-Kunt Tim. Could work.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Liked that Sherwood and Freund had a hug at the end as well, was a bit concerned Freund would be marginalized again, but seems he's involved enough.

 

[milo]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Liked that Sherwood and Freund had a hug at the end as well, was a bit concerned Freund would be marginalized again, but seems he's involved enough.

He looks more involved than he was towards the end with AVB

 

[ALtottenham_hotspur]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

He looks more involved than he was towards the end with AVB

Thats been my thinking recently. Freund started at AVB's side last season then as it went on he seemed to disappear, to the point this season I cant remember seeing him anywhere near AVB.

I'm still an AVB fan I think in time he will prove to be a good coach, think he needs to get a few seasons under his belt at a small club

 

[elltrev]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I think Sherwood does have a system in mind. It has elements of Emirates Marketing Project, elements of Southampton, elements of Dortmund, and I think his approach also has some elements of Pardew's Saudi Sportswashing Machine within it - today he was adaptable and I think where as Potchettino for example may still have tried to play their usual way at OT (which works for them) Tim was flexible and altered the approach as a Saudi Sportswashing Machine would, and they were rewarded for that decision too.

I also agree with people saying he's probably 'dumbing down' his comments a bit for the media and it's easier to get them onside by pretending football is a simple game. Obviously, fundementally it is, but to actually be a successful manager or player, there's a ludicrous amount that goes into it. Obviously players aren't filled with thousands of instructions every game, because that's where coaching comes into it over their careers. But systems, fitness, tactics, everything that can contribute to a win is constantly evolving, constantly rethought. LvG acknowledges he is the type of coach that takes a couple of weeks or a months before seeing his players play at the optimum level under his system ('prozesstrainer') because what he asks of them is quite demanding, not so easy to grasp, but once they do grasp it the players can play to more than the sum of their parts. That's what I think we need to compete too, but maybe Sherwood is capable of giving that to us.

If anyone's played sport at any level, they should realise how complicated football can be at the elite. I play basketball, and when I was younger the coaching where I lived was frankly rubbish. I was given a lot of individual freedom and virtually had to teach myself if I wanted to improve. Then I moved to a proper team in a different area where the coaching was detailed and comprehensive, and it totally opened my eyes to a different way of looking at the game. And I think, if I learnt so much more from that step up from what was a low level to still what isn't exactly a high level, surely at the elite level in any sport there is so much going into it. Sure enough, when I made another step up, it was another level again in terms of how 'complicated' the game was, but that's because the standard is higher and everyone is searching for the advantages to compete. Fundmentally, of course a 5 v 5 game where you are trying to chuck a ball through a hoop as many times as possible is simple, but to actually coach a winning team, it really isn't.

Based on the bolded bit in your post, it seems you do think that when people talk about a system, they're talking about the manager having more micro-level control over what their players do during games - is that right?

It's an interesting debate, this whole thing about the need for a system. My feeling is that some sort of middle ground is best - fielding 11 players who will complement each other when they play their natural games, and then gradually tweaking things by making suggestions as to what the players (collectively and individually) should be doing differently or additionally to make the team more effective.

As a player, I just imagine that I wouldn't enjoy playing in a system in which I was micro-managed on the pitch, with 'rehearsed patterns of movement' and the like (depending on their complexity / rigidity - obviously a little bit of guidance is good and necessary). And therefore that having that prescriptive approach might actually represent a tradeoff, to an extent, with players' enjoyment of the game and therefore motivation. And therefore in defence of the less system-based approach, I disagree with Scaramanga's previous argument that freedom and motivation can only get players to equal the some of their parts. The key is if they're more motivated / fired up / happy / spirited / determined / hard-working / playing with freedom than their rivals, which is certainly possible if this tradeoff does exist.

I also think, as others have alluded to, that the way that the system-based message is conveyed to the players is important - let's face it, most English players aren't particularly intellectual and I think they would struggle to fully understand or enjoy being 'taught' how to play football on an intellectual level.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Yesterday we adapted during the game... Started a clear 4-4-2, Ade dropped back after 15 mins to support the midfield and we were almost playing 4-5-1 in defence and 4-3-3 in attack!!!

At the end we played a 4-2-3-1 system

That's how I saw it and it was great flexibility from the team which impressed me. I don't think out last manager would have let the team adapt mid and and arguably woukdnt have played the players who could so that

Absolutely bang-on, indeed, Sherwood got big props from me for realizing that 4-4-2 was getting us killed, for freeing up Eriken to play more centrally and for getting Ade to drop in on the left BUT still give him the license to go forward. That is something which is very ironic, the way that Ade, Soldado and Eriksen were all moving and covering for each other at various times throughout the game (their movement was excellent + Lennon's) which is precisely the sort of thing I believe AVB was trying to get done but couldn't…

Feel sorry for Soldado. Yesterday was another chance a striker of his calibre should put away BUT his overall play is marvelous, so inventive, so creative and that pass for Lennon was mustard. He just needs a couple of those chances to go in and I think he will explode (in goals!)…very happy to see Kane yesterday too…

I have to admit, the fun has returned to us right now and it isn't so anxious.

 

[thfcsteff]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Thats been my thinking recently. Freund started at AVB's side last season then as it went on he seemed to disappear, to the point this season I cant remember seeing him anywhere near AVB.

I'm still an AVB fan I think in time he will prove to be a good coach, think he needs to get a few seasons under his belt at a small club

One of the many factors which sadly, and I mean that, made AVB's tenure unacceptable...

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

95 pages, not sure if people are still doing the same old stuff about cussing out tim sherwood and assuming he knows **** all cause he came in with Harry or hasnt had an official coaching job?

Hopefully we can see the effects of a good system , very malleable and able to bend to different formations with the right personnel .

the guy i feel sorry for most of all? Martin Jol...not that his dream is realised yet but he was definately the guy that really wanted to make this wonky thing really tick FULL time, even right down to the personnel

wingers that can deputise as playmakers, floating forwards...,interchangeable CMs....,overlapping full backs that are comfortable as footballers .... and a cultured CB pairing. No sweeper keeper though

times are good

Long live the wonky...doubt the next guy will play it though

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I hope that's the case. That would be some serious dedication to a dumb act though - playing thick for a decade in order to fool people for a few matches? That's some serious dedication!

The thing is Scara, you keep saying how you want the Spurs manager to tactically outthink the opposing manager rather than smash and grab football as Gutterboy says, but last year at OT was the definition of smash and grab in the 2nd half. It was literally 45 minutes of defending aside from the Dempsey goal. We not only scored two but we also created two other clear cut chances which Lennon and Soldado should have buried.

 

[onlyme]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

A few more thoughts on some of the last few pages

Re other managers

- SAF was a bully, last of his kind really, got away with it because of his stature/club, tactically switched it up a lot, played younger players on front end of season, experienced on back-end. Used assistant and specific coaches for actually coaching work
- Wenger has a system but no plan B (hence the earlier comment about not worrying too much about opponents)
- Mourinho plays each opponent, but has a specific style heavily reliant on a shielded back 4 not conceding (classic Cheat$ki side with Makelele)

Re Scara's choices of A/B/C, not sure it's that simple, and I'm not sure it's just about a "system" by itself

- System's are useful for buying the right players and having sub/youth players being able to step in and be familiar with exactly what they are supposed to be doing.
- That said, facilities (training ground), youth investments, nutrition, medical staff, scouting, media/promotion/PR are all part of what is needed to make the club more successful and have an edge on clubs that may spend more.

Re the lying or playing dumb, maybe its neither

- Players like Dawson, Walker, Lennon, Bentaleb (mostly British) and Ade have responded well to TS, maybe he knows they need to be "told" the game is simple, just like the british public media "want" to be told the game is simple. Prepare them with the right drills, setup the team in the right way (counter the opponent, ala BofL's post) but instruct the players that it's simple.
- In that way it is very much like Harry, HR always played that "simple, don't overthink" card, but clearly had a little bit more tactical thought than that.

Question for me re TS is, beyond 4-4-2/4-3-3 is he going to bring any specialist conditioning/nutrition/additional areas to work on, beyond right setup for right personnel approach?

Excellent post.

 

[onlyme]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

Recent good results aside, one of the things that has impressed me with Sherwood is his poise. There are no beady eyes going on there, he's calm and does not seem uncomfortable when interviewed. Such confidence can only be found in two types of people: those who know what they're doing, and the stupid ones.

It's funny because it's true.

I think Tim knows what he is doing.

 

[DHSF]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It's funny because it's true.

I think Tim knows what he is doing.

I agree and there is a reason I have confidence in him - he wanted a ten year contract. Thats longevity for you, he has a plan for all those that dont think he has one or there isnt one.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

The thing is Scara, you keep saying how you want the Spurs manager to tactically outthink the opposing manager rather than smash and grab football as Gutterboy says, but last year at OT was the definition of smash and grab in the 2nd half. It was literally 45 minutes of defending aside from the Dempsey goal. We not only scored two but we also created two other clear cut chances which Lennon and Soldado should have buried.

i'm more interested how he knows sherwood has been playing thick for a decade

he must know him personally

 

[Jurgen the German]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

I just think we're a much better team than Man U now and shouldn't be playing them like subservients.

We're not a mid-table team trying to nick something off one of the untouchable big 4 anymore, but that's what it felt like.

GB I like your posts in general but you remind me of Pitchfork media, you just thrive on controversy.

 

[africanspurs]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

GB I like your posts in general but you remind me of Pitchfork media, you just thrive on controversy.

how does he explain the performance at the lane then?

united had more of the ball and better chances...yet the draw was taken as a supreme result

i didnt hear him say negatives about that game like he has this one

has scara pulled the "they played their reserves" line yet?

 

[Nigeyman]

Re: Tim Sherwood - Head Coach

It is possible that many people have underestimated tracksuit tim....including many of our fans.

Of course its very early days but we should have more respect for the likes of Harry Redknapp who told us what a decent football brain timmy posessed....

Its easy for our rivals to label him thick and a limited manager tactically, I for one am happy that some of our rivals are not taking us seriously, that and us being the chasers rather than the team in a stronger position may well help us to finish strongly and achieve 4th spot under Sherwood...

What I mean is that it is imperative that we stay in touching distance of the top 4 obviously and not far away from the top three...that is why I feel Timmy's win at OT could be huge for us....because we are the chasers we can be determined and our players shouldnt feel the pressure of hanging on to a lofty position..what is also evident to me was that Tim was very flexible tactically yesterday,,just because it looks 4-4-2 doesnt mean its rigid.....in terms of Aguero...Adebayor is a bit of a floater and keeps the opposition guessing.....we were very predictable before now we seem much more flexible.

I feel generally optimistic that this crazy crazy coincedence of an appointment could really work for us even for the long term........One thing Sherwood has done has given the club the shot in the arm it needed.....and of course some always talk of a honeymoon period......but not every new manager gets a run of results....

Think we will see an exciting 2nd half of the season with plenty of goals for & against.

Had a great day at work today....singing & dancing like a t**t driving home in my van....smile on my face all day......

so thanks Timmy & the boys... please try and keep the good times rolling.