Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[DaveT316]

I'm firmly in the camp that Frank is doing what he is doing out of necessity at the moment, so I resonate with most of your post above.

If you take the view that footballers come in broadly 4 categories, those being Elite, International, Domestic, and Prospect, the reasons for Frank's pragmatism is that the squad has:

1 Elite Player - Romero
19 International - Vicario, Dragusin, Danso, Palhinha, Simons, Bissouma, Richie, Maddison, Udogie, Solanke, Kudus, Kulusevski, Gallagher, Porro, Spence, Sarr, Bentancur, Micky, Muani.
2 Domestic - Davies and Austin
6 Prospects - Kinsky, Gray, Bergvall, Tel, Odobert, Sousa.

When you then look at the injuries it drops to 1 Elite, 8 International, 1 Domestic and 5 prospects.

So basically Frank has to pick a team from 15 players five of which are kids within the first team squad, and this is going to be the case for the next month at least in all cases bar Spence.

That requires pragmatism. Now is not a time as a fan to be crowing for our beautiful Spurs back. Now is a time to get 13 more points on the board, secure our league position and then have a long hard look at the non playing staff at senior level to understand what they are doing. Our academy, our recruitment, and our player sales are underperforming, and all need review. Lange doesn't feel like the answer to me, though I know nothing of his actual performance day to day, obviously. Vinai is too new to have any real responsibility for the situation bar the outrageous statement of intent that was his open letter to fans, which on reflection now just looks stupid, really.

Finally to the manager - I really do think he can take us to better places - he's really clever, really structured and knows what he wants. Those saying he is out of his depth are doing him a disservice - we are the very definition of a poison chalice right now, and its to his credit that he's not letting things get to him in the media. He's doing what he believes is necessary to get us out of a dog fight, and I for one back him to achieve that. Could be famous last words, but I doubt it. I absolutely don't think there's a caretaker or an out of work manager who mid season could do better.

All of this.

I find myself getting very frustrated at the narrative being pushed by some that the kind of football we've largely seen so far is the only kind of football we can expect from Frank as long as he stays. The man is v intelligent and knows it won't suffice in the long term - I, for one, really respect he's sticking to his principles as he believes they are the right things to do, the right foundations to lay, to get us where he wants us to. I also really respect how he's conducting himself in the media, in the main. Yes, there are a few statements that might be considered erroneous at best, potentially misleading, but I feel he's playing the ball, not the man here. There will obviously be some spin to maintain control of the narrative and demonstrate some fight, or he may as well go home. The press would have a field day if he kept pushing a line 'this isn't good enough, this isn't the way I want us to play', he'd be a dead man walking, more than he already has been!

As many have said, it's so very, very early in the new regime's tenure to properly judge whether it's going to be a positive change from Levy's - there's 100% been some PR missteps - the new Head of Comms coming in should help here - but I really don't think there's a lot more they could've done differently starting from 1st September until now. I genuinely don't know who's out there who would be a guaranteed improvement on Frank that would take the job mid-season, when the players are plainly still playing for him and grinding their way through.

It's tough out there, no doubt about it, but I 100% concur with the above. We're going to have to stick it out till the end of the season and then see where summer takes us. I've just done my own squad audit and I feel, depending on outgoings, we need, at the very least, a new GK (no idea who), deep-lying playmaker (Wharton), CF to challenge Solanke (Agehowa) and elite level LWF (Diomande). If we can land these, while retaining our best players and improving the ability of our players to stay fit, I think we will see plenty of green shoots next year.

Onwards!

 

[glasgowspur]

Debates about his style and suitability will continue on and on, but I think one thing perhaps we can all agree on is that he has been left in an appalling limbo by Lange and VV. For weeks this guy has been 'one game away' from the boot, has not seen any external public support save a very vanilla 'message' from VV which pointedly failed to say anything positive about him, and has now been given very little support in the transfer market; I wonder if even he would've agreed to the Johnson sale had he known no-one else was coming? As I have said several times recently, I feel very sorry for him and think what he's managed to get out of the injury stricken squad in the last 10 days or so has been great in context.

There's more than shades of what happened with poch in all this, clubs in turmoil, no to little spend, team full of prospects, big talk of ambitions and a compliant manager who at some point is going to hung out to dry.
Been there, seen it, got the replica shirt.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Debates about his style and suitability will continue on and on, but I think one thing perhaps we can all agree on is that he has been left in an appalling limbo by Lange and VV. For weeks this guy has been 'one game away' from the boot, has not seen any external public support save a very vanilla 'message' from VV which pointedly failed to say anything positive about him, and has now been given very little support in the transfer market; I wonder if even he would've agreed to the Johnson sale had he known no-one else was coming? As I have said several times recently, I feel very sorry for him and think what he's managed to get out of the injury stricken squad in the last 10 days or so has been great in context.

Selling Brennan without a replacement looks terrible now the window has closed. This must be what gives Romero confidence to come out and still jibe at the board because it just fundamentally leaves us short in a tough period. All well and good wanting to sell better or sell at the perceived peak of a player’s value, but could we not have waited to sell him until the Summer?

 

[Baleforce]

Selling Brennan without a replacement looks terrible now the window has closed. This must be what gives Romero confidence to come out and still jibe at the board because it just fundamentally leaves us short in a tough period. All well and good wanting to sell better or sell at the perceived peak of a player’s value, but could we not have waited to sell him until the Summer?

Even with the all injuries, I’ve not found myself thinking “I wish we had Johnson still”.

We got good money for a player that is limited.

Its a good deal viewed in the long term.

 

[Raziel]

It looks, on the face of it, like it was the correct decision to sack Amorim, only time will tell and that time is not now imho. Utd fans are going in waay too early on Carrick. He's admittedly had some brilliant wins so far. But it's been what 3 games? Come back after he has had to deal with a 2-3 game loss or injuries to key players or the new manager bounce has worn off. He has a week to prepare between games too, which affords a better perspective to managers at top clubs. He had a similar good start to life at Middlesbrough before it tailed off over the next 2 seasons. Let's wait and see.

TF is unpopular I get that and there is a reasonable case to be made as to why. But putting aside that dislike for a second, compared to Carrick, his record is more impressive. Not only did he successfully achieve promotion to the PL with an unfancied, Brentford team, he also established them there, over 3 seasons. If it had come to replacing him before, I would not have been advocating for Carrick to be that replacement.

It is already the correct decision

- Carrick has 3 wins in a row, Amorim did that once and never bettered it in 18 months and 47 league games
- Those 3 wins has put United in a place where it's very likely they will get European football (we won't)
- Carrick shouldn't be the long-term solution, he's just to get them to end of season (noise is they want Tuchel), now it is United and if he gets them top 4, they will likely do something stupid.

The point is an interim manager, if you don't wait too long, with the benefit of the new manager bounce could have saved our season, and all the arguments people give for Frank (no one better available, needs time, needs players) are exactly the same people had with Amorim (i.e. the manager/style had no real qualities to fight for, so the issue became the replacement)

 

[JerusalemMan]

It is already the correct decision

- Carrick has 3 wins in a row, Amorim did that once and never bettered it in 18 months and 47 league games
- Those 3 wins has put United in a place where it's very likely they will get European football (we won't)
- Carrick shouldn't be the long-term solution, he's just to get them to end of season (noise is they want Tuchel), now it is United and if he gets them top 4, they will likely do something stupid.

The point is an interim manager, if you don't wait too long, with the benefit of the new manager bounce could have saved our season, and all the arguments people give for Frank (no one better available, needs time, needs players) are exactly the same people had with Amorim (i.e. the manager/style had no real qualities to fight for, so the issue became the replacement)

The points you raise will only be shown true or false at the end of the season. At which point we then say if it was the correct decision.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I'm not even sure I feel confident they get it that far. I know we are outsiders but the club feels adrift, it feels like people truly out of their depth.

As I've said elsewhere, Levy was a known entity, he would have taken steps to protect, this lot?

I understand why you'd be saying this...but...we were in the same boat last year when Levy was here, what steps did Levy take to protect then??

 

[Mabspurs]

- Carrick has 3 wins in a row, Amorim did that once and never bettered it in 18 months and 47 league games

The point is an interim manager, if you don't wait too long, with the benefit of the new manager bounce could have saved our season, and all the arguments people give for Frank (no one better available, needs time, needs players) are exactly the same people had with Amorim (i.e. the manager/style had no real qualities to fight for, so the issue became the replacement)

I am sorry mate but once again your obsession with Frank gets the better of you....

1. Amorim was sacked for insubordination, not for poor results. In fact they were in 6th place when he was shown the door and just 3 points from the 4th place they currently occupy. So your argument of some superior tactical input from Carrick is far from conclusive; and that's before even going to the argument that comparing 3 games (the last of which they were massively lucky to win) with 47 is frankly (pun intended) ridiculous... as any statistician will tell you: one (or three) swallow does not make a summer.
2. Amorim was leaving out class international players like Mainoo and playing others out of position because of an obstinate tactical fixation... players Carrick found ready to introduce and who had a point to prove. Our lack of players is not due to some weird obstinancy on Franks' part.... hell, he even brought back Bissouma!! I would love to see what the result of those "3 wins in a row" if Carrick was missing the likes of Martinez, Casemiro, Fernandez and Mbuemo against Emirates Marketing Project... and that's without even asking what he would have done with eleven of his first team options out... and having to additionally play two CL games a couple of days before with a ravaged squad.
3. For the reasons mentioned, Amorim was demotivating the players in the process and losing the dressing room... anyone without an ingrained bias would see that our players are clearly still with Frank - as their comments after Sunday testify.
4. I wonder where any of those "3 wins in a row" would be if they had gone two goals down from the brain farts that Bissouma and Dragusin did on Sunday.... but hey, they are both internationals, right? Therefore those brain farts must be due to "tactics" that Frank must have told them to do.... or, who knows, it's all due to horseshoes....

 

[Raziel]

I understand why you'd be saying this...but...we were in the same boat last year when Levy was here, what steps did Levy take to protect then??

We weren't, the 3 bottom teams were already dead, this year the 4 teams between us and relegation are all capable of going on a run of a few games. The other factor is we had a genuine chance at Europa (which got us back into Europe this year), we were bookies favorites to win with United. That's not even taking into account Ange had shown he could get the team to 5th the season before, and we were capable (not consistently) of playing winning football (Frank hasn't)

These are all risk/reward decisions, it may seem like small margins but our situation this season is notably worse than last, by this time we had players coming back from the injuries, the league was "safe", the manager was in 2nd year, fans hadn't turned, each adds up.

Personally I think Levy should have fired Ange in December, but he made a calculated risk call and it paid off, what is the pay off for sticking with Frank? (we aren't going to get to even CL SF), that's where I think he would have pulled trigger.

 

[Raziel]

I am sorry mate but once again your obsession with Frank gets the better of you....

1. Amorim was sacked for insubordination, not for poor results. In fact they were in 6th place when he was shown the door and just 3 points from the 4th place they currently occupy. So your argument of some superior tactical input from Carrick is far from conclusive; and that's before even going to the argument that comparing 3 games (the last of which they were massively lucky to win) with 47 is frankly (pun intended) ridiculous... as any statistician will tell you: one (or three) swallow does not make a summer.
2. Amorim was leaving out class international players like Mainoo and playing others out of position because of an obstinate tactical fixation... players Carrick found ready to introduce and who had a point to prove. Our lack of players is not due to some weird obstinancy on Franks' part.... hell, he even brought back Bissouma!! I would love to see what the result of those "3 wins in a row" if Carrick was missing the likes of Martinez, Casemiro, Fernandez and Mbuemo against Emirates Marketing Project... and that's without even asking what he would have done with eleven of his first team options out... and having to additionally play two CL games a couple of days before with a ravaged squad.
3. For the reasons mentioned, Amorim was demotivating the players in the process and losing the dressing room... anyone without an ingrained bias would see that our players are clearly still with Frank - as their comments after Sunday testify.
4. I wonder where any of those "3 wins in a row" would be if they had gone two goals down from the brain farts that Bissouma and Dragusin did on Sunday.... but hey, they are both internationals, right? Therefore those brain farts must be due to "tactics" that Frank must have told them to do.... or, who knows, it's all due to horseshoes....

1. Yes, reason doesn't change it being a good outcome for them, again the results achieved in 3 games vs. 47 for now stack up
2. Frank won't play Tel unless everyone else is dead, he literally will play Bergvall or Spence there first, he played Palhinha/Bentancur pivot until injuries changed it (everyone could see it wouldn't work), he runs players into the ground (Kudus, Porro, Richi), he spams crosses into the box with no plan to put enough bodies in the box to make it work, his zone 14 percentage fudgery is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen at this level.
3. VDV walking past him, players arguing with the fans, our Captain making brick posts on social media, you think these guys have Frank's back? We actually (despite fan opinion) have a group of decent pro's who turn out every game, doesn't mean they believe in the manager.
4. Tactics cause/minimize errors, Frank setup where we were outnumbered in midfield against City (funny how swapping a CM for CB at HT and we didn't see those mistakes again?), we don't have passing lanes, I've literally posted screenshots showing a midfielder last season vs this season, with the exact same number of players (and the some of the same players also), under Ange (I'm not a fan) 4 or 5 forward passing options, under Frank? 1, fudging backward. These PL level players looking uncoached is because they are uncoached. Do you know how many errors Bruno has made for Amorim not tracking runners that led to goals? you know what Carrick did? don't fudging play Bruno as a 6, push him up.

I don't have an obsession with Frank, I have an obsession with Spurs and he's killing us, and again, every fudging argument re Frank goes like this

- Anti-Frank -> bad tactics (spam crosses, play channel, sit too deep that leads to goals from zone 14), brick player selection (Bergvall at wing, RKM regardless, Palhinha/Bentancur pivot), negative approach (defending 1 goal leads, conceding possession, lack of progressive plan). All of which can be backed up by data, brick xG, worse PPG of any PL manager at home for Spurs, 14 through passes in 23 games, we are outrun in games, we are out possessed in games, we have multiple months where we win zero games.

- For Frank -> he needs time? (no explaination why, time is some magic brick that makes all managers better) and the squad is brick (same squad that was 5th 18 months ago, same squad that won the Europa, same squad that once you take off the handbrake, 2nd half against City, Villa, Liverpool, against PSG, shows they can play football, they can score, they can push anyone)

Nothing says Frank is the right guy, in fact, pretty much anyway you look at it, he isn't. I don't dislike the guy, I don't wish him ill, I think the owners have (particularly this window) hung him out to dry, but the longer we persist, the worse it is for us, he needs to go, he should have gone, we should have a plan (right now the plan is "I'm not sure how, but he'll get better, he has to, right?")

 

[Mabspurs]

I am pretty sure you don't dislike the guy... indeed he has such an affable nature and personality, that anyone disliking him personally must have some sociological or psychological deficit. It's just that you have nailed your flag firmly on the mast and - has been the case for as long this board has been up - everything you say is an attempt to justify and validate why that flag is flying. And before you say that I am doing likewise, my position has always been clear... any assessment that I make of Frank's competence or otherwise needs to wait until he has close to a decent squad available with square pegs in square holes....

1. Yes, reason doesn't change it being a good outcome for them, again the results achieved in 3 games vs. 47 for now stack up.

They only "stack up" in your mind because you want to them to stack up... for your agenda. In any other mind, especially someone who has learnt statistical significance, they are an irrelevant comparison.

2. Frank won't play Tel unless everyone else is dead, he literally will play Bergvall or Spence there first, he played Palhinha/Bentancur pivot until injuries changed it (everyone could see it wouldn't work), he runs players into the ground (Kudus, Porro, Richi), he spams crosses into the box with no plan to put enough bodies in the box to make it work, his zone 14 percentage fudgery is one of the stupidest things I've ever seen at this level.

Seriously???. Tel is the best example you can use? A player whose impact has been negligible under BOTH Ange and Frank. As for the Palhinha/Bentancur pivot... it coincided with the best away record in the league while it was in play... but that is obviously also irrelevant...

3. VDV walking past him, players arguing with the fans, our Captain making brick posts on social media, you think these guys have Frank's back? We actually (despite fan opinion) have a group of decent pro's who turn out every game, doesn't mean they believe in the manager.

Nice try... when did Romero criticise Frank? In both occasions, his anger was solely directed at the administration and the board.

4. Tactics cause/minimize errors, Frank setup where we were outnumbered in midfield against City (funny how swapping a CM for CB at HT and we didn't see those mistakes again?), we don't have passing lanes, I've literally posted screenshots showing a midfielder last season vs this season, with the exact same number of players (and the some of the same players also), under Ange (I'm not a fan) 4 or 5 forward passing options, under Frank? 1, fudging backward. These PL level players looking uncoached is because they are uncoached. Do you know how many errors Bruno has made for Amorim not tracking runners that led to goals? you know what Carrick did? don't fudging play Bruno as a 6, push him up.

So Bissouma having his pocket picked like a 6 year old in a schoolyard or Dragusin being unable to hoof a ball beyond the half way line when under no pressure is - in some way - Frank's fault???? I mean, come on, my friend!! If you cannot see how ridiculous an argument that is, then there is no scope of a discussion.... Even the MOTD2 commentator felt he needed to mention it; but he doesn't know anything as well, I guess...

I don't have an obsession with Frank, I have an obsession with Spurs and he's killing us, and again, every fudging argument re Frank goes like this

- Anti-Frank -> bad tactics (spam crosses, play channel, sit too deep that leads to goals from zone 14), brick player selection (Bergvall at wing, RKM regardless, Palhinha/Bentancur pivot), negative approach (defending 1 goal leads, conceding possession, lack of progressive plan). All of which can be backed up by data, brick xG, worse PPG of any PL manager at home for Spurs, 14 through passes in 23 games, we are outrun in games, we are out possessed in games, we have multiple months where we win zero games.

- For Frank -> he needs time? (no explaination why, time is some magic brick that makes all managers better) and the squad is brick (same squad that was 5th 18 months ago, same squad that won the Europa, same squad that once you take off the handbrake, 2nd half against City, Villa, Liverpool, against PSG, shows they can play football, they can score, they can push anyone)

Nothing says Frank is the right guy, in fact, pretty much anyway you look at it, he isn't. I don't dislike the guy, I don't wish him ill, I think the owners have (particularly this window) hung him out to dry, but the longer we persist, the worse it is for us, he needs to go, he should have gone, we should have a plan (right now the plan is "I'm not sure how, but he'll get better, he has to, right?")

The only "fudging argument" actually goes like this... having a whole first team out injured - including all creative players bar one who only now is (understandably) getting to grips with the premier league.... irrelevant to our results; they are all Frank's fault! Having to play the likes of Porro and Richi to cope with the EPL and CL games when we only have three fullbacks/strikers and one of each of those (two actually for the strikers) was injured practically all season is Frank's fault! He is to blame when they inevitably get injures. The fact that we have possibly the most unbalanced squad in the league with a glut of 8's but no deep playmaker, no backup LB, no proper 10 and no experienced left winger is irrelevant... the lack of progression is all because of horseshoes. And then the cherry (picking) on the cake... "same squad that was 5th 18 months ago." Of course, the fact that the same (actually superior) squad was 17th just 8 months ago is obviously irrelevant...

 

[lurker of old]

Don't we need to see how the next month or two pan out before writing off the manager? We've seen what a huge difference Solanke makes. Xavi has started to get to grips with the Premier league, Odobert is improving, even if he is better off as a sub. Sure, if we lose the next 3 and don't put up a fight in the NLD, then I could sway towards an interim, but right now, after that second half comeback, I'm starting to think we have potential..

 

[Raziel]

I am pretty sure you don't dislike the guy... indeed he has such an affable nature and personality, that anyone disliking him personally must have some sociological or psychological deficit. It's just that you have nailed your flag firmly on the mast and - has been the case for as long this board has been up - everything you say is an attempt to justify and validate why that flag is flying. And before you say that I am doing likewise, my position has always been clear... any assessment that I make of Frank's competence or otherwise needs to wait until he has close to a decent squad available with square pegs in square holes....

No manager gets that, every manager has to make do with the hand they are dealt. Again Leeds has a better home record than us, there cannot be a real statement that they have a better squad. He's had 30+ games

They only "stack up" in your mind because you want to them to stack up... for your agenda. In any other mind, especially someone who has learnt statistical significance, they are an irrelevant comparison.

It stacks up because the data matches the eye & logic test, that a manager that took 15+ months to win two games in a row by refusing to do logical brick (you called out playing Mainoo, pushing Bruno forward, swapping to 4 in the back, funny how that unbalanced squad suddenly looks better) is matched by a caretakers first 3 games.

Seriously???. Tel is the best example you can use? A player whose impact has been negligible under BOTH Ange and Frank. As for the Palhinha/Bentancur pivot... it coincided with the best away record in the league while it was in play... but that is obviously also irrelevant...

I use Tel because Frank played Bergvall (a 19 year old CM) in RW when Tel and 6 other players with experience in RW were available, again the Palhinha/Bentancur pivot (I could dismiss as statistically irrelevant sample size as well) failed the eye test and underlying data (xG, progressive passing, etc.) all indicated we would revert to lower results (we have)

Nice try... when did Romero criticise Frank? In both occasions, his anger was solely directed at the administration and the board.

So Bissouma having his pocket picked like a 6 year old in a schoolyard or Dragusin being unable to hoof a ball beyond the half way line when under no pressure is - in some way - Frank's fault???? I mean, come on, my friend!! If you cannot see how ridiculous an argument that is, then there is no scope of a discussion.... Even the MOTD2 commentator felt he needed to mention it; but he doesn't know anything as well, I guess...

If you expect a player to do things they can't, yes it's on you. Putting Biss in an outnumbered midfield against City (one of the best teams in world football) and expecting him to progress it isn't smart, not having extra cover for Dragusin (first game starting in a year against Cherki and Haaland) isn't smart. Both of those are direct results of his 3atb decision that was shown up in 2nd half going to 4.

The only "fudging argument" actually goes like this... having a whole first team out injured - including all creative players bar one who only now is (understandably) getting to grips with the premier league.... irrelevant to our results; they are all Frank's fault! Having to play the likes of Porro and Richi to cope with the EPL and CL games when we only have three fullbacks/strikers and one of each of those (two actually for the strikers) was injured practically all season is Frank's fault! He is to blame when they inevitably get injures. The fact that we have possibly the most unbalanced squad in the league with a glut of 8's but no deep playmaker, no backup LB, no proper 10 and no experienced left winger is irrelevant... the lack of progression is all because of horseshoes. And then the cherry (picking) on the cake... "same squad that was 5th 18 months ago." Of course, the fact that the same (actually superior) squad was 17th just 8 months ago is obviously irrelevant...

Yes mate, Frank didn't need to play Kudus every game (he wasn't that effective after first 10 or so games), he could have leveraged Tel/Odobert more, there was zero requirement to risk Porro in the last game he had played (Spence/Udogie were back), Richi is injury prone, again, Tel, RKM could have covered one or two more games. This is all risk reward, if Frank ran the players into the ground and we were 4th, I'd take it, but those games he was "forced" to play Porro, Richi, Kudus, we didn't fudging win them anyway, so it's a bad call (this is what managers get judged on, if the call works, genius, if it doesn't, macaron)

Here's where we fundamentally disagree

- Do I agree the squad has imbalances and starting a season with 6 injuries is not helping? do I think this brick window didn't help him? do I think we are missing an elite player or two?

All of those are yes answers, and Frank has some caveats for that. Where we disagree is

- Those issues cannot translate to zero wins against Brentford, Sunderland, Bournemouth, West Ham, Burnley, it cannot translate to worse home form than Leeds, it cannot translate to 14th in table at beginning of February, it cannot translate to no European football next season.

 

[Raziel]

Don't we need to see how the next month or two pan out before writing off the manager? We've seen what a huge difference Solanke makes. Xavi has started to get to grips with the Premier league, Odobert is improving, even if he is better off as a sub. Sure, if we lose the next 3 and don't put up a fight in the NLD, then I could sway towards an interim, but right now, after that second half comeback, I'm starting to think we have potential..

As the one who seems to get called out the most, here's how I see it

- Could/should we get better under Frank with time and players coming back? yes

The question is how much better, is that 14th to 8th better, or 14th to 6th better? (this season is a huge missed opportunity to get back in CL), did we really not win against Wolves, Burnley, West Ham, Sunderland, Brentford, Bournemouth because we didn't have Solanke?

And this come back to why Frank was hired over Ange specifically

- My opinion is Frank was seen as a safer pair of hands, he would bring up the floor of the clubs results (so not 17th), I don't think they expected Frank would even match Ange's Europa cup win. He was seen as a guy who could get results out of lesser resources (expectation therefore than more resources would give even better results)

So in that frame, Frank has failed, he has not raised the floor and he has not done better when faced with resource challenges (injuries)

Then the question becomes, what have we seen that says, given another 200M in players (consistent with what Conte/Ange got) we will suddenly improve results, style, position under Frank? and if we don't have a very clear view, the smarter thing is reset and spend that money under another manager

 

[glorygloryeze]

We weren't, the 3 bottom teams were already dead, this year the 4 teams between us and relegation are all capable of going on a run of a few games. The other factor is we had a genuine chance at Europa (which got us back into Europe this year), we were bookies favorites to win with United. That's not even taking into account Ange had shown he could get the team to 5th the season before, and we were capable (not consistently) of playing winning football (Frank hasn't)

These are all risk/reward decisions, it may seem like small margins but our situation this season is notably worse than last, by this time we had players coming back from the injuries, the league was "safe", the manager was in 2nd year, fans hadn't turned, each adds up.

Personally I think Levy should have fired Ange in December, but he made a calculated risk call and it paid off, what is the pay off for sticking with Frank? (we aren't going to get to even CL SF), that's where I think he would have pulled trigger.

I'm sorry but i'm going to have to remind you that you yourself were asking this time last year what the hell we were doing not sacking Ange given the form etc.
You DID NOT think we were likely to win the Europa league, much like you don't think it's likely we'll win the CL this season.
They (the owners) are taking similar calculated risks this season: are you forgetting how Leicester came to our ground in January and schooled us much like West Ham did recently? Yet we are also still in Europe and, funnily enough, finished again 4th in the group stage and on the same points...

You even think Levy should have fired Ange in December last season!
So again i'm not buying this "the owners are being different with Frank compared to Ange" line

 

[Lemonade Money]

Lol, calm down FFS.

 

[Muttley]

So you’d sack him if we were in a relegation fight and we stay up, but there’s an argument to keep him if we were in a relegation fight and go down?

I really don't know.

If he finishes say 15th-17th then I can't see how we'd be able to keep him. If he climbs the table from this point and we have momentum going into the end of the season then I think we should keep him.

If we get relegated, where do we find a manager? We have one that knows how to get out of the Championship and knows the cans and cannots of this squad. The scenario of him being a Championship manager wouldn't probably happen as we'd pull the trigger with 3 or 4 games to go and bring in a caretaker manager to get that short term hit. Doesn't bear thinking about to be honest.

It is all about the timings I guess. I previously wrote that he wouldn't make the NLD in 3 weeks time. What do I know?

 

[Muttley]

Selling Brennan without a replacement looks terrible now the window has closed. This must be what gives Romero confidence to come out and still jibe at the board because it just fundamentally leaves us short in a tough period. All well and good wanting to sell better or sell at the perceived peak of a player’s value, but could we not have waited to sell him until the Summer?

Selling Johnson could actually give his captain confidence that we can see the wood from the trees as a club. Romero surely wants to be playing with elite players at Spurs. I'm sure he was as objective as all of us about the move. Tougher for Romero though, as Brennan was a friend in the same squad that went on a European adventure together and won a trophy. Romero's smart will know there is no gain without pain.

 

[Muttley]

I'm firmly in the camp that Frank is doing what he is doing out of necessity at the moment, so I resonate with most of your post above.

If you take the view that footballers come in broadly 4 categories, those being Elite, International, Domestic, and Prospect, the reasons for Frank's pragmatism is that the squad has:

1 Elite Player - Romero
19 International - Vicario, Dragusin, Danso, Palhinha, Simons, Bissouma, Richie, Maddison, Udogie, Solanke, Kudus, Kulusevski, Gallagher, Porro, Spence, Sarr, Bentancur, Micky, Muani.
2 Domestic - Davies and Austin
6 Prospects - Kinsky, Gray, Bergvall, Tel, Odobert, Sousa.

When you then look at the injuries it drops to 1 Elite, 8 International, 1 Domestic and 5 prospects.

So basically Frank has to pick a team from 15 players five of which are kids within the first team squad, and this is going to be the case for the next month at least in all cases bar Spence.

That requires pragmatism. Now is not a time as a fan to be crowing for our beautiful Spurs back. Now is a time to get 13 more points on the board, secure our league position and then have a long hard look at the non playing staff at senior level to understand what they are doing. Our academy, our recruitment, and our player sales are underperforming, and all need review. Lange doesn't feel like the answer to me, though I know nothing of his actual performance day to day, obviously. Vinai is too new to have any real responsibility for the situation bar the outrageous statement of intent that was his open letter to fans, which on reflection now just looks stupid, really.

Finally to the manager - I really do think he can take us to better places - he's really clever, really structured and knows what he wants. Those saying he is out of his depth are doing him a disservice - we are the very definition of a poison chalice right now, and its to his credit that he's not letting things get to him in the media. He's doing what he believes is necessary to get us out of a dog fight, and I for one back him to achieve that. Could be famous last words, but I doubt it. I absolutely don't think there's a caretaker or an out of work manager who mid season could do better.

I really like this post. When you break it down, we have a core of players that this or the next manager would just enjoy having. I think it is as many as 15 or 16. Then you have the 4 or 5 other youngsters, not including Gray or Bergval as they're already in the former.

Then you go to work on the rest. If you do it right then you end up with another 2 or 3 elite players as their replacements. Just those 2 or 3 players can become transformative.

 

[Bishop]

It is already the correct decision

- Carrick has 3 wins in a row, Amorim did that once and never bettered it in 18 months and 47 league games
- Those 3 wins has put United in a place where it's very likely they will get European football (we won't)
- Carrick shouldn't be the long-term solution, he's just to get them to end of season (noise is they want Tuchel), now it is United and if he gets them top 4, they will likely do something stupid.

The point is an interim manager, if you don't wait too long, with the benefit of the new manager bounce could have saved our season, and all the arguments people give for Frank (no one better available, needs time, needs players) are exactly the same people had with Amorim (i.e. the manager/style had no real qualities to fight for, so the issue became the replacement)

Youre missing an important element. United have a better team than us. They have game winners, proven in the PL both at United (Fernades) and in PL at lower level clubs (Mbuemo and Cunha).

Yes getting them to perform is like to get the Moments FC motoring again, it's what they do.