Thomas Frank - Head Coach

[thfcsteff]

I don't know how far back you're thinking but we haven't really played those kind of passes since the days of Modric and Huddlestone. Even under Poch our midfield was more hard working and functional than it was truly creative and line breaking (a complaint of mine at the time).

We've had the occasional player who has had that skill in their wheelhouse ie. The likes of GLC and Ndombele but their football didn't work here in totality anyway. So I don't think it's even true to speak as if we were previously playing dozens of passes through the lines.

We will never know about GLC or Ndombele because they were signed for Poch who then got 12 or so games with them before being brick-canned for 'a winner'...BTW, prime Eriksen says hi...

 

[Bishop]

We will never know about GLC or Ndombele because they were signed for Poch who then got 12 or so games with them before being brick-canned for 'a winner'...BTW, prime Eriksen says hi...

I'd argue Eriksen played a bit further forward generally than the space I'm thinking of although he definitely dropped deeper at times. I'm more talking about passing from deep.

I agree with you about Ndombele and GLC, they were bought for a fairly radical evolution of the system we had been playing but never actually had the chance to play it together with the coach who wanted them.

 

[braineclipse]

That's shocking from Bentancur and Palhinha considering the amount of game time they've had.

Was a graph going around showing Bentancur's progressive passing this season compared to last season. Both seasons after his injury. Essentially halved the amount of progressive passing from last season. Not that he was great at it last season either, but this is partly a result of how we play.

What we know about Palhinha imo is that he's a decent passer with some space and time and facing the right way. Turning on the ball and passing progressively under pressure just isn't his thing.

Was it against Everton he played as a CB? I don't remember the game, but remember him doing quite well on the ball from there (more space and time, facing the right way most of the time). We could easily drop him deeper in buildup and push the full backs a bit higher or invert one of them. I think that would get more out of both Palhinha on the ball and particularly Spence and Udogie who are comfortable in a role like that.

It's partly the players, but it's also imo to a rather large degree how Frank is choosing to play.

 

[braineclipse]

What was wrong with our ‘style of play’ yesterday? If it wasn’t the result.

Liverpool allowed us time and space on the ball, sat back quite a bit. As we've seen before in those circumstances we'll look at least alright. We got forward, put them under quite a bit of pressure, created some chances. Good to see, though I think it was more about how they played than anything specific we did.

We've seen that before. Teams sit off us, we can definitely look alright. And particularly in games where we have the better individuals we make that count. Imo still significant room for improvement in that kind of game state, but alright.

After the red is a different game state where we're quite good. Defend well, mostly compact. What we did better against Liverpool than in some other games was also getting forward ourselves at times.

Game states where we struggle the most and where I think our style of play lets us down the most are when teams press us high. We really struggle to get out. Another one is when we imo at least should do more to gain control of a game against a worse or more equal level opposition.

We're not very good getting out of a high press. We're not very good at taking control of games. When control is handed to us we're alright, but we frequently struggle with chance creation. For me that's related to our style of play.

 

[Lemonade Money]

We will never know about GLC or Ndombele...

Poch's biggest lemons. Based on what happened next in their careers, we can have a bloody good guess!

 

[Gutter Boy]

Poch's biggest lemons. Based on what happened next in their careers, we can have a bloody good guess!

Disagree. There's so many sliding doors moments in football. Both came in on steep upwards trajectories, to work with a progressive coach and top man manager, who really wanted them. In a few weeks they were left with a disciplinarian dinosaur who didnt want creative players. The big mistake they both made was not just heading straight for the exit and finding another club that was compatible with them much sooner

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Disagree. There's so many sliding doors moments in football. Both came in on steep upwards trajectories, to work with a progressive coach and top man manager, who really wanted them. In a few weeks they were left with a disciplinarian dinosaur who didnt want creative players. The big mistake they both made was not just heading straight for the exit and finding another club that was compatible with them much sooner

Because no one else could afford them
And I agree by the way
It’s like Johnson is leaving this January and I suspect he will carry on doing what he did last season and probably win a trophy or two more in his career (villa will get him IMO). He clearly doesn’t suit a team that doesn’t pass forwards or over the top so is a waste here and taking the money is sensible

 

[Lemonade Money]

Disagree. There's so many sliding doors moments in football. Both came in on steep upwards trajectories, to work with a progressive coach and top man manager, who really wanted them. In a few weeks they were left with a disciplinarian dinosaur who didnt want creative players. The big mistake they both made was not just heading straight for the exit and finding another club that was compatible with them much sooner

Ndombele

→ Lyon (loan)

→ Napoli (loan)

→ Galatasaray (loan)

Nice

Lo Celso has gone back to Betis, after not working out with Villareal. We overpaid for players below the level we aspire too. That is all based on facts. Your argument is based on Poch Fantasy Land.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Sorry?
I don't understand what you're asking and in what context?

I think it was your posts! They were the context. You were complaining about the style of play (not the result).


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4 wins in the calandar year, I have total sympathy for season ticket holders. Results wise it hasn't been much fun at the lane this year.

 

[Bishop]

Because no one else could afford them
And I agree by the way
It’s like Johnson is leaving this January and I suspect he will carry on doing what he did last season and probably win a trophy or two more in his career (villa will get him IMO). He clearly doesn’t suit a team that doesn’t pass forwards or over the top so is a waste here and taking the money is sensible

I'll be shocked if Villa signed him.

 

[Muttley]

Because no one else could afford them
And I agree by the way
It’s like Johnson is leaving this January and I suspect he will carry on doing what he did last season and probably win a trophy or two more in his career (villa will get him IMO). He clearly doesn’t suit a team that doesn’t pass forwards or over the top so is a waste here and taking the money is sensible

Why do you think Johnson is leaving in Jan?

Personally, I'd love to see some brave exits by the club. Vic, Bents, Dragu, BJ, Odobert are clear candidates above the obvious Davies, Richi and Palhinha.

I often wonder whether Frank benchmarks Vic against David Raya. The latter was clearly a top tier keeper that Frank worked with. If Vic isn't meeting the equivalent standards then Frank will want him out.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Why do you think Johnson is leaving in Jan?

Why do you ask this? Have you not seen the media reports of us being happy to let him go? Plus one of our old players, Chris Armstrong, seems to have suggested he's on the way to Palace...might not happen and we will see. But the story of the club being ok for him to leave didn't just come out of nowhere imo

Personally, I'd love to see some brave exits by the club. Vic, Bents, Dragu, BJ, Odobert are clear candidates above the obvious Davies, Richi and Palhinha.

What do you mean by 'clear candidates above the obvious'?

I often wonder whether Frank benchmarks Vic against David Raya. The latter was clearly a top tier keeper that Frank worked with. If Vic isn't meeting the equivalent standards then Frank will want him out.

You might be right on that...the trouble is when he gave our backup a chance to be more competition vs Saudi Sportswashing Machine in the LC has scuppered his hands somwhat.. Out of interest @Bedfordspurs do you still say Vicario is better than David Raya?

 

[Muttley]

Why do you ask this? Have you not seen the media reports of us being happy to let him go? Plus one of our old players, Chris Armstrong, seems to have suggested he's on the way to Palace...might not happen and we will see. But the story of the club being ok for him to leave didn't just come out of nowhere imo

My bad. Been crazily business and not seen all these links.

What do you mean by 'clear candidates above the obvious'?

I mean that some exits are just expected. Davies as an example is end of contract. Richi will only have a year left and we're not providing him a new contract. So I don't see any surprises about him leaving. Others though are more mainstays of the squad. Bents as an example has just signed a new contract and been involved in most games. I'd still move him on.

You might be right on that...the trouble is when he gave our backup a chance to be more competition vs Saudi Sportswashing Machine in the LC has scuppered his hands somwhat.. Out of interest @Bedfordspurs do you still say Vicario is better than David Raya?

I obviously don't. Less than a year in age between the 2 of them. I know which one I'd rather have between sticks for us. I'd still rather have the Hugo that joined us way back when. That keeper and leader was amazing.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I think it was your posts! They were the context. You were complaining about the style of play (not the result).


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4 wins in the calandar year, I have total sympathy for season ticket holders. Results wise it hasn't been much fun at the lane this year.

Results are bad.... Performances even worse!

 

[glorygloryeze]

My bad. Been crazily business and not seen all these links.



I mean that some exits are just expected. Davies as an example is end of contract. Richi will only have a year left and we're not providing him a new contract. So I don't see any surprises about him leaving. Others though are more mainstays of the squad. Bents as an example has just signed a new contract and been involved in most games. I'd still move him on.



I obviously don't. Less than a year in age between the 2 of them. I know which one I'd rather have between sticks for us. I'd still rather have the Hugo that joined us way back when. That keeper and leader was amazing.

Thanks.

Just to clarify as well as selling Bentancur, are you saying you'd also sell Odobert, BJ, Vicario and Dragusin?

 

[Gutter Boy]

I think Johnson, Richy, Solanke and Maddison would be the first I'd clear out. Davies and Palinha are obviously out of contract soon too, but those first 4 might bring in decent sums and feel like the right time to sell - i.e. they've peaked and will be on downward trajectories from now.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think it was your posts! They were the context. You were complaining about the style of play (not the result).


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4 wins in the calandar year, I have total sympathy for season ticket holders. Results wise it hasn't been much fun at the lane this year.

Am I missing a pattern of play, beyond the enforced 'counter' tactice with 10 men which basically meant we had no de facto 10 in Simons?
It is possible to have enjoyed the fight of the performance, enjoyed the energy of the chaos, feel sorry for the team and Frank, and still recognise we were still hard to fathom in terms of style; again, ciorcumstances put paid to us seeing what the performance in full would've yielded?
If you're suggesting that this sort of performance is what I want to see more of? In terms of spirit, yes. I terms of deployment? No.

 

[thfcsteff]

Ndombele

→ Lyon (loan)

→ Napoli (loan)

→ Galatasaray (loan)

Nice

Lo Celso has gone back to Betis, after not working out with Villareal. We overpaid for players below the level we aspire too. That is all based on facts. Your argument is based on Poch Fantasy Land.

I think, in fairness, it is based on the notion of giving the manager the players he supposedly wanted...and then maybe letting him either elevte them or sink with them.

It was a period in our history I think we will pay for eternally. Levy made up with Poch that summer (perhaps he shouldn't have if the net result was going to be the same -sacking). He (eventually!) got the two players (remember we paid 60 mill for NDombele and then chiseled a deal for Lo Celso on the eve of the season thus robbing Poch of a pre-season with him, this behaviour from a club who'd just banked approx 150 mill from rwaching the CL Final) and then sacked him after just under three months. Poch said Ndombele would need time. It left us with a destabilized club, two destabilized players who signed for a manager and rebuild that not only didn't happen but saw them virtually opposite to what the next bloke wanted, and a hole in the 'budget' which meant said 'next bloke' got worldies like Edson Fernandes in January.
I think it was Levy's worst series of decisions, one as bad as the next, and honestly, as a club tough to recover from.

 

[Lemonade Money]

Levy's worst series of decisions

Doing everything he could to keep Poch.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I have a somewhat unique view on this Tottenham thing, not because I’m special in any way but more so because I’ve had a fairly critical view of the overall systems in place, specifically recruitment and the managerial appointments we have made over the years.

I’ve felt we were an ever-increasing shambles, marked with small fissures that season after season were growing wider and wider, covered over with the slimmest of plasters named Harry Kane and Son Heung-min.

I’ve not really been impressed with the quality of the players we’ve brought in either, in terms of raw attributes and specifically technique. I say all of that to say that we have been slowly building to this point, where a manager arrives and I just don’t really see a squad that is capable of playing “good football” but then also actually achieving anything.

Now for me, “good football” isn’t just pretty short passes. It’s control of a game — not in terms of pure possession (although that is my preference) — but in territorial gain and momentum control. It’s the regularity and quality of the attacking play. It’s the positioning of the players, but it also includes defensive work. I know of no great team that actually achieved great things that was not also great defensively in whatever manner they were set up. So good football to me is a balance, and football is always about balance: between the left and the right, between attack and defence, between a high or low block, a high press or man-to-man, defenders making timely interceptions, winning their duels, ushering the play. Midfielders controlling the game (I am absolutely biased towards this play style), both offensively and defensively.

That’s “good football” to me, and I look at this squad and I just don’t see a group capable of doing this. I’m personally not interested in heroically but naively going out to play with the intention of just “going for it”. For me, football is a very simple game on the surface that is full of skilled subtlety and nuance, and it’s in those margins that a great team is created, where a great team wins, and where “good football” exists. To be honest, I don’t even want “good football” — I want GREAT football — but I’m also realistic, and I believe this squad as it stands just isn’t capable of doing this.

So how do we achieve what we want? I believe it’s an incremental process. Something that, as clichéd as it sounds, will take time. It’s a process, yes, of style imbuement, but it’s really a process of recruitment. We are going to need to find players with certain key attributes and build from there, whoever the manager is. This is a process this club just needs to commit to.

I do think Frank could be doing better. There are lots of decisions I disagree with. The lack of a regular LW jars me. I get that he doesn’t truly rate any of them (me neither), but you still need to go with someone to get that balance, and sticking with an individual could at least create the façade of balance.

So the shape could be more aggressive, we could be more aggressive, but in the areas that will really make a difference — the passing quality, the vision, the first touch, etc. — I just don’t think they are there, and no amount of coaching is really going to fix that, in my opinion.

I appreciate the well argued point of view here, I must say in the spirit of debate I disagree with this idea that the squad quality has been reduced to the point whereby we have to play the style of football that we are seeing, I think our players are better than you give them credit for, and I think we see what we see because this is what Frank wants.

I also say this as someone who believes there is a fairly good chance we benefit from Frank’s early season decisions to have a good second half of the year,

But the reason I disagree is because we’ve seen managers play ‘good football’ with Championship clubs. The old era of Rodgers and Martinez. Maresca with Leicester. In fact if Maresca was our manager with the exact same squad we have now, the style of football would be very different, and the identity would be a lot clearer. I’m not even saying this is a good or a bad thing, because I believe that Frank’s whole ideal state is to sometimes look fluid, sometimes counter, sometimes be hard to break down depending on the game state and context of the opponents. And so I think the reason we’re seeing what we’re seeing is that this method hasn’t fully clicked for the squad yet, as they’re unwinding a lot of their programming from Ange, who had a wildly different view on things.

But I just don’t see how our players are supposedly so lacking in quality that they have to play a more attritional style. What we see is what Frank wants, it is clear from decision making, pass maps etc that this is what he wants. But another manager would go about building this squad in a very different way.