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The "Why" thread

Rorschach said:
Ok ..I'll jump in as I'm a bottle of wine in.

Those who look for meaning through religion or look to the heavens for answers miss what is in front of their eyes. We are the miracle. The lives of the creatures and plants around us are a miracle. The chance of life happening on this rock has a statistical probability too high to be written. We are a cosmic fluke that is a child of a billion cosmic flukes. Everyone on this planet is composed of stardust that has travelled the vast expanses of space to coalesce into you. A weird bag of water and carbon that somehow manages to stand upright and talk bollix about football. This gift of life is the most precious thing in the universe but we have taken it for granted. Our greed and hubris know no end and sometimes I think this planet would be better off without us. And I think Gaia will soon come to the same conclusion.
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I pretty much agree with this, although somewhat ironic that you mention "those who look for meaning through religion or look to the heavens for answers" and finish off talking about Gaia :D

I was pootling around on a backwater/the Thames in a kayak yesterday and there were loads of bright blue dragonflies flitting around and mating and preying and eating and shagging and I remarked how crazy it is that something so tiny, so stupid, so short lived can have the skill to do all of that, inches from the water.
 
Bullet said:
I pretty much agree with this, although somewhat ironic that you mention "those who look for meaning through religion or look to the heavens for answers" and finish off talking about Gaia :D

I was pootling around on a backwater/the Thames in a kayak yesterday and there were loads of bright blue dragonflies flitting around and mating and preying and eating and shagging and I remarked how crazy it is that something so tiny, so stupid, so short lived can have the skill to do all of that, inches from the water.
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Don't sell yourself short mate.
 
I think the genius and balance in our world indicates design to me. I'm not saying there's anything kind or merciful about this designer. But it's genius is beyond comprehension. I find the chance concept a reach of galactic proportions (pun intended).
 
LutonSpurs said:
I think the genius and balance in our world indicates design to me. I'm not saying there's anything kind or merciful about this designer. But it's genius is beyond comprehension. I find the chance concept a reach of galactic proportions (pun intended).
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This is a common argument with a relatively simple rebuttal.

If the idea of this world/universe just happening to exist is too improbable, then what of the probability of a creature so ridiculously unlikely that it is able to create all of this. If your argument is on likelihood, then the likelihood of the alternative is many orders of magnitude less likely.
 
Bullet said:
I pretty much agree with this, although somewhat ironic that you mention "those who look for meaning through religion or look to the heavens for answers" and finish off talking about Gaia :D

I was pootling around on a backwater/the Thames in a kayak yesterday and there were loads of bright blue dragonflies flitting around and mating and preying and eating and shagging and I remarked how crazy it is that something so tiny, so stupid, so short lived can have the skill to do all of that, inches from the water.
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Fair point, though I was referring to Lovelock's Gaia rather than the Greek goddess version. That's about as spiritual as I get.

I do love a bit of kayaking myself. I was out farting around on a kayak in the Atlantic there last week, similarly marvelling at everything around me.
 
LutonSpurs said:
I think the genius and balance in our world indicates design to me. I'm not saying there's anything kind or merciful about this designer. But it's genius is beyond comprehension. I find the chance concept a reach of galactic proportions (pun intended).
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I would agree but the world that is taught as designed by say GHod (if you believe the 7 days story) is not the world that was initially created before the idea of GHod that we know through science.

I am a massive believer in evolution of science that means we are who we are after billions of years of natural change.

Gold had extra-terrestrial beginnings and elements like zircon uranium lead dating make be believe even more that this is all a beautiful accident
 
scaramanga said:
This is a common argument with a relatively simple rebuttal.

If the idea of this world/universe just happening to exist is too improbable, then what of the probability of a creature so ridiculously unlikely that it is able to create all of this. If your argument is on likelihood, then the likelihood of the alternative is many orders of magnitude less likely.
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An all powerful being is more likely to have created this than a ball of gas whose existence you cannot explain. It's the rational position to belive in a creator. You call it a ball of gas. Others call it GHod. Others say first singular.

Hence why atheism is as irrational as belief in GHod.

The only rational position is agnosticism.
 
LutonSpurs said:
An all powerful being is more likely to have created this than a ball of gas whose existence you cannot explain. It's the rational position to belive in a creator. You call it a ball of gas. Others call it GHod. Others say first singular.

Hence why atheism is as irrational as belief in GHod.

The only rational position is agnosticism.
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You're right with you last sentence.

Absolute 100% belief in anything is faith and that is nonsense.

However, I'd qualify your statement. If agnosticism is a scale from 0 (Godtardery) to 100 (atheism), then the only rational position is at 99.999° on the scale.
 
scaramanga said:
You're right with you last sentence.

Absolute 100% belief in anything is faith and that is nonsense.

However, I'd qualify your statement. If agnosticism is a scale from 0 (Godtardery) to 100 (atheism), then the only rational position is at 99.999° on the scale.
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But how do you qualify something like that. Let's be anthropomorphic for a minute. We don't create things like this by chance. They take incredible intellect and craft. How did this brick just happen?
 
LutonSpurs said:
An all powerful being is more likely to have created this than a ball of gas whose existence you cannot explain. It's the rational position to belive in a creator. You call it a ball of gas. Others call it GHod. Others say first singular.

Hence why atheism is as irrational as belief in GHod.

The only rational position is agnosticism.
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What created or where did your 'all powerful being' come from? It is in no way 'more likely' than a physical explanation.

There is nothing rational about a creator.

Science is in itself always agnostic as it is always open to challenge and change, rather than absolutes.
In this situation though the agnostic position doesn't involve a creator or GHod/s, just an uncertainty of how the Universe (re-)started from the laws of physics and chemistry.
 
Lost Mango said:
What created or where did your 'all powerful being' come from? It is in no way 'more likely' than a physical explanation.

There is nothing rational about a creator.

Science is in itself always agnostic as it is always open to challenge and change, rather than absolutes.
In this situation though the agnostic position doesn't involve a creator or GHod/s, just an uncertainty of how the Universe (re-)started from the laws of physics and chemistry.
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Yes Science says agnosticism is the only answer.

My view is there is some design. And it makes me wonder about a creator. I don't know anything of course. Or think anyone else should agree with me.
 
LutonSpurs said:
But how do you qualify something like that. Let's be anthropomorphic for a minute. We don't create things like this by chance. They take incredible intellect and craft. How did this brick just happen?
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Evolution, it's not that complex. In fact one can observe in animals with large birth rates and relatively high genetic defect rates.

None of this requires a designer. In fact, much of it makes the concept of a designer less likely.
 
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