The owners - where do you sit?

[DeanoAustin]

On the commercial side I’d say he is, but the football side is just as important and it’s my opinion that the best chairman, player, coach etc has to have some form of silverware in order to claim they are the best in the league/world.

It's very difficult to decide who the best is. It's not like players and managers who will move to a club that will win trophies if they are any good.

Levy is a great businessman and he's been a very good chairman for us. Where he ranks in a league table of chairmen, I've no clue.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It's very difficult to decide who the best is. It's not like players and managers who will move to a club that will win trophies if they are any good.

Levy is a great businessman and he's been a very good chairman for us. Where he ranks in a league table of chairmen, I've no clue.

I agree. As bishop said, I think our fans are just desperate to be the best at something, probably because of the lack of silverware.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

On the commercial side I’d say he is, but the football side is just as important and it’s my opinion that the best chairman, player, coach etc has to have some form of silverware in order to claim they are the best in the league/world.

But one has to take into account that many of the 'silverware slots' were taken up by City and Chelsea.

Plus the real momentum of the machine we've been developing has only started to come into it's own the last couple of years post covid.

Its a tough ask for any chairman to trump City or Chelsea during the development phase.

 

[jrh]

I agree. As bishop said, I think our fans are just desperate to be the best at something, probably because of the lack of silverware.

Weird to take a swipe at your own fanbase like that bro...

 

[Raziel]

But one has to take into account that many of the 'silverware slots' were taken up by City and Chelsea.

Plus the real momentum of the machine we've been developing has only started to come into it's own the last couple of years post covid.

Its a tough ask for any chairman to trump City or Chelsea during the development phase.

It's a circular argument (discussion maybe as we tend to be decent on this board), people have different opinions

Media has convinced everyone that trophies or even particular trophies are the only measurements of success, e.g.
- Kane wasn't the best #9 in the world at Spurs, scoring 30 goals in that dreadful Spurs team last year, yet this year he will be in the Ballon d'Or conversation because he will sleep walk 45+ goals and a title at Bayern, has his product really changed?
- Messi wasn't the goat before Argentina won the WC, is the Messi who won the WC actually a better player than he was 2 years before?
- So Levy isn't the best now, but if Ange wins the FA Cup this year and League Cup next year, he is?

 

[Jurgen the German]

It's a circular argument (discussion maybe as we tend to be decent on this board), people have different opinions

Media has convinced everyone that trophies or even particular trophies are the only measurements of success, e.g.
- Kane wasn't the best #9 in the world at Spurs, scoring 30 goals in that dreadful Spurs team last year, yet this year he will be in the Ballon d'Or conversation because he will sleep walk 45+ goals and a title at Bayern, has his product really changed?
- Messi wasn't the goat before Argentina won the WC, is the Messi who won the WC actually a better player than he was 2 years before?
- So Levy isn't the best now, but if Ange wins the FA Cup this year and League Cup next year, he is?

Sport is about getting over the line. That’s what cements your status as the best in a particular sport, winning things. No one would say Lewis Hamilton was the best F1 driver if he hadn’t won multiple titles. If Kane doesn’t get over the line for Bayern either in the league or in the Champions League then people will rightly question his record in crunch moments.

 

[Jurgen the German]

But one has to take into account that many of the 'silverware slots' were taken up by City and Chelsea.

Plus the real momentum of the machine we've been developing has only started to come into it's own the last couple of years post covid.

Its a tough ask for any chairman to trump City or Chelsea during the development phase.

Levy could become the best chairman in the game once the stadium bears fruit.

 

[DeanoAustin]

It's a circular argument (discussion maybe as we tend to be decent on this board), people have different opinions

Media has convinced everyone that trophies or even particular trophies are the only measurements of success, e.g.
- Kane wasn't the best #9 in the world at Spurs, scoring 30 goals in that dreadful Spurs team last year, yet this year he will be in the Ballon d'Or conversation because he will sleep walk 45+ goals and a title at Bayern, has his product really changed?
- Messi wasn't the goat before Argentina won the WC, is the Messi who won the WC actually a better player than he was 2 years before?
- So Levy isn't the best now, but if Ange wins the FA Cup this year and League Cup next year, he is?

To be fair to @Jurgen the German, he raises a reasonable point. If you're chairman of Brentford, you're unlikely to lead them to league and cup titles because they aren't a big enough club and have no history of winning big prizes. We do. We have never been a Liverpool or United but we were one of the most successful clubs in the country. Levy's been here more than 20 years and we've won one league cup. While we've never been prolific in terms of trophies, we've rarely had this sort of barren run. So, as chairman of a club whose primary aim is to win trophies, can you say he's been the best?

Flip side is that there are a lot of variables in the equation. Is Levy really in control of what happens on the pitch, 3 clubs have won the lottery, he inherited a club at a pretty low ebb by historical standards.

I genuinely can't make a judgement on him in terms of ranking him against other chairmen. I can judge him on what he's done for us and, despite the lack of trophies, I think he's done some pretty incredible things. On top of that, if FFP now has teeth, that may well sort the trophy issue out in the not too distant future.

 

[Grays_1890]

It's very difficult to decide who the best is. It's not like players and managers who will move to a club that will win trophies if they are any good.

Levy is a great businessman and he's been a very good chairman for us. Where he ranks in a league table of chairmen, I've no clue.

Also we don't know where this journey ends. If we get into a situation where we win 3/4 trophies in the next 5/6 years and all Levys prophecies come true then you have to tip your hat off to him.

I said it before, he has never lied to us, said it would be a sustainable model and the commercial development would make us stronger and it has. The closing the financial gaps should be the key now to sustained pushes towards pot.

Just to go over old ground, its not Levys fault solely that we have not won anything in the past, underdog or otherwise we should have converted one or two of the 15 SFs/Finals into something, the players and managers have to walk through the door and grab something they want at times

 

[jrh]

It's not Levy's job to win on the pitch is it? It's his job to put the club in a position to compete.

I don't think you can argue he hasn't done this, we're punching well above our weight especially in comparison to the cheat-mode clubs.

Also his tenure has often been in the face of difficult circumstances. Sure he's made errors along the way, but show me a chairman who hasn't?

Sport is about getting over the line. That’s what cements your status as the best in a particular sport, winning things. No one would say Lewis Hamilton was the best F1 driver if he hadn’t won multiple titles. If Kane doesn’t get over the line for Bayern either in the league or in the Champions League then people will rightly question his record in crunch moments.

To flip your analogy, Ducati are considered one of the best run teams in MotoGP. Professional, highly rated innovators but with nowhere near the financial power of the other factory teams. They have to box clever and hadn't won a title for decades until the years of being well run paid off and the riders they employed finally did the business on track.

It's far too simplistic to say Levy is to blame for lack of success on field, there are a number of factors at play. I don't think you could ever say he's the primary reason for our lack of silverware.

 

[Lilbaz]

People using trophies as a measurement. They may be the most important thing to fans, but to the clubs. (All the clubs). Getting into the champions league is the priority. It is worth far more to them than winning an fa cup or league cup.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Sport is about getting over the line. That’s what cements your status as the best in a particular sport, winning things. No one would say Lewis Hamilton was the best F1 driver if he hadn’t won multiple titles. If Kane doesn’t get over the line for Bayern either in the league or in the Champions League then people will rightly question his record in crunch moments.

So West Ham's EUFA Conference League trophy puts Sullivan ahead of Levy's Tottenham. right?

Don't make me laugh.

 

[Grays_1890]

People using trophies as a measurement. They may be the most important thing to fans, but to the clubs. (All the clubs). Getting into the champions league is the priority. It is worth far more to them than winning an fa cup or league cup.

And also they are both linked IMO, you don't get in the CL for a period of time then the prospect of trophies is lessened because of a massive drop in resources. Our fans have weirdly linked getting in the CL as a reason we don't win things which IMO is rubbish, we should have won things and qualified even as underdogs.

Conversely I think we overplay the idea that winning is a long term cure all, I don't see Chelsea fans falling back on their trophies as a reason to accept what they are going through now, so yeh they at least had those times, but the idea fans then accept league mediocrity like many on here say they would is fantasy stuff

 

[Raziel]

Sport is about getting over the line. That’s what cements your status as the best in a particular sport, winning things. No one would say Lewis Hamilton was the best F1 driver if he hadn’t won multiple titles. If Kane doesn’t get over the line for Bayern either in the league or in the Champions League then people will rightly question his record in crunch moments.

Team sport different to individual, but even then there is context, is there a single F1 fan who thinks Checo is a top 3 driver in the world? as long as he races the current dominant RB car, he will be statistically. There are lots of lists of worst players to ever win CL/PL.

Do you genuinely believe Kane is not the best #9 in the world because his team didn't win a trophy? not sure if serious here?

If you want to have a conversation about Spurs trophies, there are 11 times we have been within 180 minutes of winning
- There are 5 runner up results
- There are 6 semi-final results

Might actually be an interesting analysis, a 12 -1 conversion rate from SF or better is pretty brick, is that club? manager? opposition?

 

[Grays_1890]

Team sport different to individual, but even then there is context, is there a single F1 fan who thinks Checo is a top 3 driver in the world? as long as he races the current dominant RB car, he will be statistically. There are lots of lists of worst players to ever win CL/PL.

Do you genuinely believe Kane is not the best #9 in the world because his team didn't win a trophy? not sure if serious here?

If you want to have a conversation about Spurs trophies, there are 11 times we have been within 180 minutes of winning
- There are 5 runner up results
- There are 6 semi-final results

Might actually be an interesting analysis, a 12 -1 conversion rate from SF or better is pretty brick, is that club? manager? opposition?

Added to that in concentration we have been in the top 4 more often than any period in the history of the club EVER. The clubs been in the business end with better players than the 8 years before they took over. We also won trophies in our history when we were not even in the talk as the top 7/10 in the league, so it happens, not just for us but many others. I really don't subscribe to the underdogs in finals like we were Watford or Millwall.

 

[greatwhitenorf]

Really? of course you can make that connection

If Luton finished in top 6 for next 15 years, built a new stadium, new training facilities and regularly had WC players in their squad while staying within spending rules under the same chairman, you don't think that chairman would have a case for best chairman in the league? regardless of if they never got past a cup QF?

Clearly an OTT example, but it is context that matters

Lets judge Levy on results

Off-field, this isn't even a fight, and what's interesting here is he's done better than clubs that got free stadiums (West Ham & City) or even clubs with cheat mode on
- Improvements to infrastructure under his time -> #1 in league, likely #1 or 2 globally (Madrid's new place? arguably influenced by ours)
- Commercial position of club -> #1 in Europe (do we need to argue this one?), match day revenue, most profitable, improvements in top 10 global club position, etc.

On-field (and here context matters)
- PL results, only been outside top 6 twice in last 16 years, been in CL 5 of last 8, 2nd +two 3rd place finishes in a league with cheat mode City & Chelsea. Context -> best run of consistent finishes in the clubs history (never been better), could/should we have won at least 1? yes but in context Spurs has won 2 league titles in 141 years, so Levy has another 50 years to win one to keep up with average.
- We have firmly established ourselves in top 6 (probably invented the top 6 idea), actually finished above every team in the league at least once, 6+ times over clubs like United, Pool, Arsenal, put ourselves out of the league of clubs we were competing with in 2001 (Everton, West Ham, Villa, etc.)
- Cups/Trophies, 1 Trophy, 5 runner ups, 6 SF's, 10 QF's, so on average we get to at least a QF each year, and again re context, we have won less than 20 trophies in 141 years, so Levy is about 2 short/behind the average club output

Peer comparison (someone has to the best against?)
- United & Arsenal have squandered their dominance of league/trophies position from the 00's decade, yes, still won more than us, but both clubs are worse off (declined), Chelsea almost went bust, had the RA era and now who knows? Liverpool is probably the success story of the last decade but hard to say that was a 20 year plan, lucked out on not carrying the debt of previous owners, City is a nation state funding, hopefully we don't need to have this conversation
- Nobody outside the top 6 is even in the equation, the outlier short frame success (e.g. Leicester) actually highlights the difficulty/risks in breaking into top level
- The interesting part is I'm trying to find a club that has had the same owners for the last 20+ years, that in itself says something.

I get Levy isn't perfect, they have been mistakes, there have been things all of us have disagreed with but if he isn't the best chairman in the league over the last 20+ years, who is (and what data shows that?)

Fcukin' A, pal.

 

[parklane1]

There will always be conversations about Levy and if he is the best chairman or not and that is fair enough. As for me i know i would not want any other chairman around in charge of our club now in his place.

 

[Jurgen the German]

So West Ham's EUFA Conference League trophy puts Sullivan ahead of Levy's Tottenham. right?

Don't make me laugh.

Not saying that. But others are saying Levy’s zero trophies are better than every other chairman who have won everything? If we were reading the forum of a rival club and the situation was reversed and they had Levy and no trophies in 15 years we’d laugh our heads off if they called him the best chairman in the league

 

[Jurgen the German]

People using trophies as a measurement. They may be the most important thing to fans, but to the clubs. (All the clubs). Getting into the champions league is the priority. It is worth far more to them than winning an fa cup or league cup.

They’re not the only measurement but they’re a factor and they can’t be dismissed or marginalised just because we have a poor record of picking up silverware during Levy’s time.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It's not Levy's job to win on the pitch is it? It's his job to put the club in a position to compete.

I don't think you can argue he hasn't done this, we're punching well above our weight especially in comparison to the cheat-mode clubs.

Also his tenure has often been in the face of difficult circumstances. Sure he's made errors along the way, but show me a chairman who hasn't?



To flip your analogy, Ducati are considered one of the best run teams in MotoGP. Professional, highly rated innovators but with nowhere near the financial power of the other factory teams. They have to box clever and hadn't won a title for decades until the years of being well run paid off and the riders they employed finally did the business on track.

It's far too simplistic to say Levy is to blame for lack of success on field, there are a number of factors at play. I don't think you could ever say he's the primary reason for our lack of silverware.

It’s also not the manager’s job to win on the pitch, they can only influence tactics, team selections etc. it’s not their fault if they prepare a team well and they batter the opposition and miss loads of chances but lose the game 0-1 they’re judged on results. Put it this way, if we had won loads of trophies then Levy would rightly be getting lots of credit, particularly on here so why is it not his responsibility when we don’t win things when he ultimately runs the club?