The Defensive Midfielder

[superfaisty]

I'm quite intrigued by Sherwood's refusal to play a DM or water carrier. It's just the kind of potentially 'ahead of its time' type thinking that may give us an advantage over more conventional and traditional systems we are competing against once it clicks.

I'd love to hear from Sherwood the exact tactical rationale behind it because he must have one. It may never work but I suspect that our squad is up to the fitness and confidence to play his way properly, it may do quite well.

Maybe something along the lines of 'the goons havent had one for years and have played CL for years so why do we need one?

The article / blog says it all, fully agreed on the importance of an anchor/ pivot / deep lying player.

How we have missed a carrick type of player. Who knows if we'd signed moutinho when avb joined, avb might still be in charge now.

 

[Nigeyman]

If you were Spurs manager and you had the chance to build the team in your mould, the way you want football to be played, what type of midfielders would you want?

A water carrier? or someone to aggressively win it back? Or someone like Carrick or Busquets who acts as a pivot and dictates play from deep. Ironically I saw Luka Modric in this role. I think pairing him with Sandro or Dembele would have been just perfect. He and Alonso or Khedeira really works well for Madrid right now.

I guess that's me asking the unthinkable question, would you drop Sandro for a pivot/anchor type player like Busquets or even Carrick if this is how you see how football should be played or not.

My Idea of the perfect midfield probably resembles what man utd had in 99..... but with what we have this is my idea of our perfect midfield.

DM 1)destroyer breaks up play 2) passing range able to hit accurate long passes to wingers/strikers 3)Has a decent long range powerful shot on him

CM 1) box to box 'adept equally at defence and attack 2) decent passing range keeping things ticking over 3)ability to make well judged runs in pen area

LM&RM Wingers on natural sides......Dribbling,pace,decent crossing ability, ability to make inciscive runs into the pen area

AM/SS the no 10 think VDV 1)amazing passing range 2)link between midfield & striker 3)goalscoring prowess
basically the instructions to this player is play closer to the striker against weaker teams ss......and slightly deeper vs better opposition.

So if I was manger my spurs team would be trying to fit the requirments above..

Sandro (dm) Paulinho (cm)

Lennon (rm) Lamela (lm)

Eriksen (AMF,SS)

Yes for me we need a defensive minded midfielder........I would say Sandro is our Roy Keane from utd 99.....he would break the hearts and minds of the opposition...by winning the midfield battle he would lift others peformances but that doesnt mean he was an anchor purely sitting in front of the defence....he would score goals with well times runs......I would say Sandro is not at Keanes level but not a million miles off.....would love to see him as our captain and the driving force of our team.

 

[the dza]

But if we play 3 CMs how will we possibly play two English traditional wingers, and a big man/little man combo up front?

Do it how Harry did it, in our best team the past few years:

---------friedel
walker--kaboul--king--bae
lennon--parker--modric--bale
-----------vdv
-----------ade

current version could be:

---------lloris
walker--dawson--vertonghen--rose
lennon--sandro--eriksen--townsend
-----------lamela
-----------ade

 

[Modric THFC]

I think the limited/specialised midfielders like the Sandro/Parker type are outdated. You need to be able to do more than tackle.
Ideally you'd want an all round type paired with a playmaker type in a 2 man midfield if you want to play passing football.

 

[P.D.]

An all round type who plays at a high level is very rare and thus very expensive. I mean who in the prem can tackle, start attacks, dribble, pass, draw players out of position and score.

You are probably only looking at Toure, Ramires and at a push Wheelchair. Gerrard maybe back in the day. Dembele could fill that role but hasn't quite reached the desired level yet though he certainly has the attributes to do so.

 

[SteveAWOL]

A pairing of Modric or Moutinho with Sandro could've been great...

I would love to see us play such a "pivot" (alongside Sandro against top notch attacks like City or one of those box-to-box runners that are Paulinho and Dembele when we are up against teams which sit deep) who has the skills to make our possession count by providing some much needed control of the passing tempo and can quickly turn defence into attack with a precise through-ball.

Capoue would seem to be the most Carrick-like that we've got currently judging by what I've seen/read about him but appears to be out of favour with Sherwood, whilst I'm hopeful that Carroll might develop into a Modric type of midfielder in years to come. Eriksen seems better suited to taking over VdV' role as the #10 than playing CMF imho and Holtby is a bit too frenetic but perhaps will become more controlled with further experience.

Accurate Passes per 90 minutes for our central midfielders:
[table="width: 670, class: grid"]
[tr]
[td]2010/11:[/td]
[td]60 - Modric[/td]
[td]53 - Jenas[/td]
[td]50 - Huddlestone[/td]
[td]43 - Palacios[/td]
[td]41 - Sandro[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2011/12:[/td]
[td]62 - Modric[/td]
[td]56 - Livermore[/td]
[td]47 - Parker[/td]
[td]45 - Sandro[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2012/13:[/td]
[td]52 - Parker[/td]
[td]52 - Livermore[/td]
[td]50 - Dembele[/td]
[td]48 - Huddlestone[/td]
[td]47 - Sandro[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2013/14:[/td]
[td]52 - Capoue[/td]
[td]51 - Dembele[/td]
[td]48 - Holtby[/td]
[td]42 - Sandro[/td]
[td]41 - Paulinho[/td]
[/tr][/table]

Accurate Passes per 90 minutes for other Top 7 teams' central midfielders this (last) season:
[table="width: 700, class: grid"]
[tr]
[td]ARSEnal:[/td]
[td]71 (76) - Arteta[/td]
[td]64 (73) - Ramsey[/td]
[td]58 (n/a) - Flamini[/td]
[td]45 (55) - Wheelchair[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Emirates Marketing Project:[/td]
[td]69 (71) - Yaya[/td]
[td]52 (n/a) - Fernandinho[/td]
[td]52 (49) - Garcia[/td]
[td]n/a (59) - Barry[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Chelsea:[/td]
[td]69 (n/a) - Essien[/td]
[td]56 (58 ) - Mikel[/td]
[td]56 (48 ) - Lampard[/td]
[td]44 (39) - Ramires[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Liverpool:[/td]
[td]62 (62) - Lucas[/td]
[td]62 (57) - Gerrard[/td]
[td]50 (65) - Allen[/td]
[td]47 (49) - Henderson[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Everton:[/td]
[td]60 (n/a) - Barry[/td]
[td]48 (n/a) - McCarthy[/td]
[td]n/a (46) - Gibson[/td]
[td]n/a (42) - Fellaini[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Man Utd:[/td]
[td]67 (72) - Carrick[/td]
[td]n/a (74) - Scholes[/td]
[td]61 (60) - Cleverley[/td]
[td]39 (n/a) - Fellaini[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

 

[iggyfog]

Have you thought about the teams that we have been playing in Sherwood's games? West Ham, Southampton, and West Brom. Winnable games probably in the eyes of Sherwood and most of us. Sherwood is probably thinking that he plays a very attacking team and that we dictate the play of the game, holtby and demebele can play the deep lying midfield role.

I bet agains Man United and Arsenal that we see completely different teams, and it wouldn't surprise me to see us go to a a 433 or a 4141.

I would have much preferred to see Capoue come on yesterday rather than the young kid - bentaleb - though people are singing his praises there were a few missed passes yesterday, and what capoue is very good at is brining the ball forward which then creates space for other players which was really needed yesterday. Lots of sideways passes from bentaleb.

 

[harr1984]

Interesting considering Sherwood himself was more of a DM type. I dont think he's stupid though and for games such as Utd away he will use one....

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Do it how Harry did it, in our best team the past few years:

---------friedel
walker--kaboul--king--bae
lennon--parker--modric--bale
-----------vdv
-----------ade

current version could be:

---------lloris
walker--dawson--vertonghen--rose
lennon--sandro--eriksen--townsend
-----------lamela
-----------ade

I would love to see that current version team to be honest. Would do well IMO

 

[diego_maradona]

I would love to see that current version team to be honest. Would do well IMO

We'd still be very open even with Sandro there. I'd like us to go Dembele/Paulinho with Sandro/Capoue in CM with Eriksen wide left where he can tuck in to make it 3. When we need goals we can switch it up with Eriksen in the middle

 

[Kingdawson]

I remember Redknapp playing no dm in the 09/10 season against 'big teams' and for some reason it worked (Huddlestone did not play a dm role in those games btw).

lennon----------Huddlestone-------modric-----------Bale

---------------------Defoe-------Pavlychenko------------



In theory we should have been destroyed by teams like City, Chelski, Gooners but we looked pretty damn solid.

 

[diego_maradona]

I remember Redknapp playing no dm in the 09/10 season against 'big teams' and for some reason it worked (Huddlestone did not play a dm role in those games btw).

lennon----------Huddlestone-------modric-----------Bale

---------------------Defoe-------Pavlychenko------------



In theory we should have been destroyed by teams like City, Chelski, Gooners but we looked pretty damn solid.

This is very true

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

I remember Redknapp playing no dm in the 09/10 season against 'big teams' and for some reason it worked (Huddlestone did not play a dm role in those games btw).

lennon----------Huddlestone-------modric-----------Bale

---------------------Defoe-------Pavlychenko------------



In theory we should have been destroyed by teams like City, Chelski, Gooners but we looked pretty damn solid.

That's true. I think it was important that Bale and Lennon were hard working, meaning we effectively had a midfield 4 all hussling to win the ball back and playing a deeper defensive line, so when we did get it Bale and Lennon could join the strikers and be found by the excellent passers in central midfield. Maybe we are going back towards something like that.

If the 2 wingers weren't hard working and weren't dropping in to create a solid midfield 4, it certainly wouldn't have worked as well against the bigger teams.

 

[indianspur]

I remember Redknapp playing no dm in the 09/10 season against 'big teams' and for some reason it worked (Huddlestone did not play a dm role in those games btw).

lennon----------Huddlestone-------modric-----------Bale

---------------------Defoe-------Pavlychenko------------



In theory we should have been destroyed by teams like City, Chelski, Gooners but we looked pretty damn solid.

good post

Maybe Sherwood has identified the lack of creativity and progressive passing in CM and that is why he has played who he has in the games so far

Its been a daring change thats for sure

 

[scaramanga]

I remember Redknapp playing no dm in the 09/10 season against 'big teams' and for some reason it worked (Huddlestone did not play a dm role in those games btw).

lennon----------Huddlestone-------modric-----------Bale

---------------------Defoe-------Pavlychenko------------



In theory we should have been destroyed by teams like City, Chelski, Gooners but we looked pretty damn solid.

Much of that was down to the massively underrated terrier-like ability of Modric to chase down all over the pitch. He was like a one man pressing machine - we also had Thudd's reading of the game and positioning. The combination of Thudd/Lennon also meant that team's couldn't commit too much as they'd be taken apart on the break if they did.

 

[diego_maradona]

That team wasn't massively used though. I remember it well at the end of the CL winning year when against Arsenal Ekotto returned to replace Bale at LB, Palacios was suspended I think, so Redknapp was forced into playing Modric with Huddlestone and Bale on the left and for some weird reason Rose on the right.

Lennon finally returned v Emirates Marketing Project in that away game, where we played that team. We also played the same side against them in the next season in the 0-0 where Joe Hart had a blinder and we played them off the park. But yea for that spell of games we used Hudd and Modric as CMs with 2 up front it really worked for us. Then we bought VdV who replaced one of the strikers.

I think for 4-4-2 to work against a top side who plays 3 in the middle we need to work incredibly hard as Defoe and Pav did that day v Arsenal from the top.

As Scara says Tommy and Luka were underrated in their tenacity and reading of the game. I remember the two of them bossing Toure, Barry and De Jong.

The following year Redknapp bought Parker and he and Modric also were pretty fierce in CM as a duo. It really really worked in what was our most balanced side I can remember.

Is Parker any more of a DM than Tommy? Is a DM's role defined more by the area they occupy or the job they do? For me personally, I feel its a territorial thing.

This is written by Jonathon Wilson (some posters' favourite writer):

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2009/sep/22/football-tactics-trends

The history of tactics is the history of the manipulation of space. Space is created – or emerges – for one player, and he begins to have a disproportionate influence on the game. Then a way is found to block him, and in turn space will appear somewhere else on the pitch.

I think players like Busquets, Carrick, Pirlo and going back in time to players like Guardiola, Dunga and De La Pena, sat in front of the defence and orchestrated the rhythm of their side. They used the space well. And I feel the area in which they occupy still made them DM's

 

[diego_maradona]

Going back to the original post, I think we all love Sandro and pretty much all of us would have him in our starting XI.

Do you see him as a shield who sits in front of the back four? I imagine if we had him partnering a Carrick type pivot, I would imagine that pivot or anchor to be the deeper lying of the two and Sandro going further forward and winning the ball back and really competing.

One of Sandro's best attributes is his reading of the game. He is phenomenal in his positioning when he's on song.

 

[clownfoot]

Going back to the original post, I think we all love Sandro and pretty much all of us would have him in our starting XI.

Do you see him as a shield who sits in front of the back four? I imagine if we had him partnering a Carrick type pivot, I would imagine that pivot or anchor to be the deeper lying of the two and Sandro going further forward and winning the ball back and really competing.

One of Sandro's best attributes is his reading of the game. He is phenomenal in his positioning when he's on song.

The goal against AC Milan in the San Siro was one of Sandro's best moments. His positioning was key to that counter attack being possible

 

[SPURSphenomenon]

For me, if we're going to play without a DM, then we need to evolve into a team that presses every single ball all over the pitch. (Maybe thats what Sherwood is trying to create).

Great post above about Hudd and Modric, however I dont think we should undestimate the work that both Lennon and Bale did when on the flanks back then. (Lennon always immense with his tracking back, Bale was still in left back mentality so the defensive side of his game was still important to him).

My issue with whats happening at the moment is that I dont think Sherwood is using our players most capable of pressing the ball/breaking up play.

Spot on clownfoot, that AC goal shows EXACTLY why its important, and we had two DM's that game, our defensive performance that night gave us the platform to get that result.

 

[Lilywhite]

A pairing of Modric or Moutinho with Sandro could've been great...

I would love to see us play such a "pivot" (alongside Sandro against top notch attacks like City or one of those box-to-box runners that are Paulinho and Dembele when we are up against teams which sit deep) who has the skills to make our possession count by providing some much needed control of the passing tempo and can quickly turn defence into attack with a precise through-ball.

Capoue would seem to be the most Carrick-like that we've got currently judging by what I've seen/read about him but appears to be out of favour with Sherwood, whilst I'm hopeful that Carroll might develop into a Modric type of midfielder in years to come. Eriksen seems better suited to taking over VdV' role as the #10 than playing CMF imho and Holtby is a bit too frenetic but perhaps will become more controlled with further experience.

Accurate Passes per 90 minutes for our central midfielders:
[table="width: 670, class: grid"]
[tr]
[td]2010/11:[/td]
[td]60 - Modric[/td]
[td]53 - Jenas[/td]
[td]50 - Huddlestone[/td]
[td]43 - Palacios[/td]
[td]41 - Sandro[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2011/12:[/td]
[td]62 - Modric[/td]
[td]56 - Livermore[/td]
[td]47 - Parker[/td]
[td]45 - Sandro[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2012/13:[/td]
[td]52 - Parker[/td]
[td]52 - Livermore[/td]
[td]50 - Dembele[/td]
[td]48 - Huddlestone[/td]
[td]47 - Sandro[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2013/14:[/td]
[td]52 - Capoue[/td]
[td]51 - Dembele[/td]
[td]48 - Holtby[/td]
[td]42 - Sandro[/td]
[td]41 - Paulinho[/td]
[/tr][/table]

Accurate Passes per 90 minutes for other Top 7 teams' central midfielders this (last) season:
[table="width: 700, class: grid"]
[tr]
[td]ARSEnal:[/td]
[td]71 (76) - Arteta[/td]
[td]64 (73) - Ramsey[/td]
[td]58 (n/a) - Flamini[/td]
[td]45 (55) - Wheelchair[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Emirates Marketing Project:[/td]
[td]69 (71) - Yaya[/td]
[td]52 (n/a) - Fernandinho[/td]
[td]52 (49) - Garcia[/td]
[td]n/a (59) - Barry[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Chelsea:[/td]
[td]69 (n/a) - Essien[/td]
[td]56 (58 ) - Mikel[/td]
[td]56 (48 ) - Lampard[/td]
[td]44 (39) - Ramires[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Liverpool:[/td]
[td]62 (62) - Lucas[/td]
[td]62 (57) - Gerrard[/td]
[td]50 (65) - Allen[/td]
[td]47 (49) - Henderson[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Everton:[/td]
[td]60 (n/a) - Barry[/td]
[td]48 (n/a) - McCarthy[/td]
[td]n/a (46) - Gibson[/td]
[td]n/a (42) - Fellaini[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]Man Utd:[/td]
[td]67 (72) - Carrick[/td]
[td]n/a (74) - Scholes[/td]
[td]61 (60) - Cleverley[/td]
[td]39 (n/a) - Fellaini[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

You'll be hoping for a while then mate. For all our many overrated first-team players, Carroll is by far the most overhyped player on our books.

Has anyone watched him for QPR this season? He's so average. Doesn't stand out in the slightest even at that level. Compare him to younger midfielders who play his position like Will Hughes and Ravel Morrison, they are light years ahead of him.

Carroll will never be more than a Championship standard player.

As for the defensive midfield role, we definitely need to play Sandro every game, and rotate him out for Capoue every so often. There are very few games in this league where you can get away playing without a defensive-minded midfielder.