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Slaughterhouses
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monkeybarry
Jack Jull
im not condoning anything at all that happened in that video and completely advocate the people involved experiencing the same treatment before being sent to prison
but did anyone really think it was all hunky dorry, cuddly cuddly in "slaughter houses"?
the bottom line is "the centre of humanity is cruelty", and will continue to be
you also cant expect people to work in a job where killing animals for profit is their business and expect them not to be mentally altered by it (you can hope for it - but to expect is naive)
im not vegitarian (although i am moving towards a minimal meat diet out of taste choice mostly (and morality slightly)) - but humanity consumes a lot of meat (and eggs, milk), too much for it be sustainable as well as ethical
sad, but true
but did anyone really think it was all hunky dorry, cuddly cuddly in "slaughter houses"?
the bottom line is "the centre of humanity is cruelty", and will continue to be
you also cant expect people to work in a job where killing animals for profit is their business and expect them not to be mentally altered by it (you can hope for it - but to expect is naive)
im not vegitarian (although i am moving towards a minimal meat diet out of taste choice mostly (and morality slightly)) - but humanity consumes a lot of meat (and eggs, milk), too much for it be sustainable as well as ethical
sad, but true
Danishfurniturelover
the prettiest spice girl
This feels like a new website so i do not want to cause a big debate, but i do not feel i can let a subject like this pass without mentioning that some sections of the religious communties in this country like to eat meat that has similar experince just before death.
Obviously, the name 'slaughterhouse' says it all. But the way how the workers would kick the pigs and electrocute them through the jaw or nose was horrific. Even when they tried to electrocute the goat it didn't move at all because it was on the verge of death from all the beatings it had taken.
papaspur
Kasey Keller
monkey, there are no excuses for the behavior within a slaughterhouse. Are you suggesting that we are naive if we expect the livestock NOT to be tortured before we eat it? Yes, I know how messy meat production can be, but videos like the one in the article infuriate me every time I watch one.
My cousin in Greece is a farmer and regularly has to slaughter his livestock, but I wouldn't say he's mentally altered because of it. It's simply the lifestyle that he has grown up in. He doesn't beat or kick his livestock, let alone shock them incessantly.
As one of the Ugly Americans posting on this board, I know we have the same sorts of issues in our own slaughterhouses. However, like the animals that are slaughtered there, the American public is oblivious to most issues, especially those regarding their own health (nevermind the health of others, be they human or livestock). We eat a lot of meat in this country, but like everything else, prices must always be brought down.
I know I tend to generalize, but there is no excuse for mistreating animals. Factory farms are absolutely wretched places where pigs can live in a pen that's barely their own width and have no room to move. Chickens are also cooped up tightly in cages and never get let out.
Industrialization can work for cars, but it absolutely should not be applied to livestock, except in cases where the animals are unharmed (milking, egg extraction, etc.). What torrid places, and the workers tend to be mistreated as well (same goes for any big industry). When I buy meat (and I eat my fair share), I try not to buy from flimflam 'organic' or the cheap brands. I boycott Smithfield products because of their notoriously bad slaughterhouse practices. It also doesn't help that we as the consumers are so far removed from this whole process. The moral dilemma I am facing recently is whether I would be able to slaughter an animal I intended to eat, and if I couldn't, whether I should eat meat at all. But most people don't think about such things. All they care about is Kim fudging Kardashian and Tim (the twunt) Tebow. And of course, the big industrial farms always deny that their practices are wrong or unsafe, for both the livestock and the consumers. They can afford lobbyists to essentially write the laws for them and render the Food & Drug Administration toothless in its authority.
I agree with the last point you make, monkey. We do eat a lot of meat and would be better off if people asked "Where did this come from?" every time they went to the grocery store. But ultimately, money trumps all and we are hopeless for change.
My cousin in Greece is a farmer and regularly has to slaughter his livestock, but I wouldn't say he's mentally altered because of it. It's simply the lifestyle that he has grown up in. He doesn't beat or kick his livestock, let alone shock them incessantly.
As one of the Ugly Americans posting on this board, I know we have the same sorts of issues in our own slaughterhouses. However, like the animals that are slaughtered there, the American public is oblivious to most issues, especially those regarding their own health (nevermind the health of others, be they human or livestock). We eat a lot of meat in this country, but like everything else, prices must always be brought down.
I know I tend to generalize, but there is no excuse for mistreating animals. Factory farms are absolutely wretched places where pigs can live in a pen that's barely their own width and have no room to move. Chickens are also cooped up tightly in cages and never get let out.
Industrialization can work for cars, but it absolutely should not be applied to livestock, except in cases where the animals are unharmed (milking, egg extraction, etc.). What torrid places, and the workers tend to be mistreated as well (same goes for any big industry). When I buy meat (and I eat my fair share), I try not to buy from flimflam 'organic' or the cheap brands. I boycott Smithfield products because of their notoriously bad slaughterhouse practices. It also doesn't help that we as the consumers are so far removed from this whole process. The moral dilemma I am facing recently is whether I would be able to slaughter an animal I intended to eat, and if I couldn't, whether I should eat meat at all. But most people don't think about such things. All they care about is Kim fudging Kardashian and Tim (the twunt) Tebow. And of course, the big industrial farms always deny that their practices are wrong or unsafe, for both the livestock and the consumers. They can afford lobbyists to essentially write the laws for them and render the Food & Drug Administration toothless in its authority.
I agree with the last point you make, monkey. We do eat a lot of meat and would be better off if people asked "Where did this come from?" every time they went to the grocery store. But ultimately, money trumps all and we are hopeless for change.
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
as i said, there can be no condoning of any such action
i was saying we are naive for thinking this doesnt happen - i stopped short of saying ignorant, but now i think about it, i think it is more of an ognorant bliss from most of society
as far as the part about becoming not mentally altered - i stand by that. im not saying everyone that works in a slaughterhouse is an animal harmal scum bag, but it is no surprise that some will become that way when they experience that all day. its a form of institutionalisation (much like bankers becoming so obsessed with making money and ditching morality - did they all do it? no. it was the minority - but it was (is) very naive of us to have not seen it coming since the liberalisation of banking in the early 80s))
totally agree re; the industialisation.
but sadly, humanity works on supply and demand - and until people are prepared to eat less meat and pay more for the meat they do eat, it will continue. these same people (and i am by no means excluding myself) will be horrified by these videos - then eat a bacon sandwich without even making the link.
even in the example you gave re milking and getting eggs, animals ARE harmed in the majority of cases, with battery chickens etc
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
oh Papa - you mentioned Smithfield in your post. is that a US brand or do you mean Smithfield market?
papaspur
Kasey Keller
Smithfield Foods is a US brand.
A lot of the animal abuse videos come from their subsidiary factory farms. Same with Spam, but that kind of goes without saying...
I try to justify my eating meat by telling myself that we as humans have been doing it for our entire existence. On top of that, this is how the food chain works, but even a lion will quickly finish off its prey so it does not need to suffer. The only point you made that I still disagree with is that the person abusing and torturing these animals was probably likely to commit that sort of behavior even prior to him working in that slaughterhouse. But if that behavior is ACCEPTED in the slaughterhouse, well, that's a whole other can of worms.
I know it's part of American literature/history courses, but have any of you read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair? One of the main topics the public took away from the book were the descriptions of the terrible conditions in slaughterhouses when industrialization was in full pitch. Originally, Sinclair wanted to show all the political corruption, but I guess those two things, and many more, are connected.
Additionally, our FDA has some remarkably lax regulations on how much dust/insect parts/rodent hairs are allowed in our food (natural contaminants).
Anyone who eats KFC is condoning inhumane treatment.
The film Temple Grandin is very good without pontificating regarding this issue.
I believe we carry a heavy burden in our souls by knowingly supporting such treatments, I've been vegetarian for nearly 20 years, but still know that to be completely free of such feelings I should be vegan.
The film Temple Grandin is very good without pontificating regarding this issue.
I believe we carry a heavy burden in our souls by knowingly supporting such treatments, I've been vegetarian for nearly 20 years, but still know that to be completely free of such feelings I should be vegan.
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
totally agree re; the above.
i havnt read that book. is there a film? i find it really hard to get into novels (love reading autobiographies and text books - but just cant do novels!)
maybe i mistyped last night, was rather tired - i wasnt saying the people would have done that pre slaughterhouse, i was saying that the slaighterhouse is likely to have changed them
Gordinho
Banned
Isn't there a school of thought that says world hunger could be eliminated if we stopped breeding meat for eating?
papaspur
Kasey Keller
Yeah, it would solve a lot of our problems. Raising livestock is expensive, hence these big meat corporations cutting every possible corner to deliver us, the consumers, the cheapest bull(brick) we can get.
I can't speak for citizens in other parts of the world, but Americans are obstinate. If you were to merely suggest to people that it would do the whole world a lot of good to eat less meat, you'd get some jerk-ass claiming how he's being victimized and how you're trying to take his rights (and guns) away.
The truth is, however, that Americans are choosing - by what means I'm not sure - to eat less meat in recent years. I just read a NYT article about it two weeks ago which I can try to dig up if anyone is interested. The keyword in this whole mess always ought to be sustainability. We have an incredibly arrogant mindset here and for some reason find it extremely difficult to think about our neighbors, brethren across the globe, and the future generations that we ultimately need to foster... but anyway, I'll cut myself off before I go off the boil.
monkeybarry
Jack Jull
breath papa, breath
that article would certainyl be of interest - i wonder how much of it has to do with economic circumstances over the last few years?
i know that factor has certainly had an effect on my thinking - veg is cheaper and you can do more with it, whereas i know the less i spend on meat, the less "meat" i am actually buying
whats the theory behind stopping breeding for eating and reducing world hunger then?
(i will google it too - just thought i would be an interesting point to further discussion!)
that article would certainyl be of interest - i wonder how much of it has to do with economic circumstances over the last few years?
i know that factor has certainly had an effect on my thinking - veg is cheaper and you can do more with it, whereas i know the less i spend on meat, the less "meat" i am actually buying
whats the theory behind stopping breeding for eating and reducing world hunger then?
(i will google it too - just thought i would be an interesting point to further discussion!)
WookieD
Didier Zokora
I think the general idea MB, is that pastoral farming produces much less food by area used, especially when you factor in the amount of area needed just to grow feed.
Interesting that this thread should come up. I only heard the name Temple Grandin for the first time this weekend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin
Interesting that this thread should come up. I only heard the name Temple Grandin for the first time this weekend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Grandin
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Her story shows how/why people with neuro/spectral issues can be so important, as the neural pathway fixation they develop (IMO due to toxic pharmacology being administered at early ages, or pre-birth, in most cases, or issues such as a lack of alkaline minerals in the mother leading to pre-eclampsia etc) can be ideal for development of ideas, where an average mind will wander around ideas/topics, they often do not and can concentrate and focus far more of the minds capacity to solve issues.
Of course this takes good teaching and parenting (which must be so very difficult).
She is an inspiration for sure.
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papaspur
Kasey Keller
We are living in a time where mortality is low (in the first world), there's food, access to medicine/treatments and welfare programs, etc. etc. I am all for welfare, social safety nets and universal health care (something that still alludes our country). However, with all this comes a responsibility from every citizen to society as a whole. The truth is, people are dumb as rocks and can't be bothered to contemplate the consequences of their actions. They are living in the now, for themselves, and couldn't give a rat's about anyone else, including any offspring they beget.
Birth control? nothxkbye
Oh. You were talking about livestock... interestingly, there's no fast food out there that's actually good for you or mostly comprised of fruits and vegetables. These sorts of organic health stores are wicked expensive. There are very few alternatives for lower-income individuals/families to afford eating properly, let alone not going hungry. Perhaps if government stopped subsidizing LARGE corporate factory farm operations, and instead focused on subsidizing local farmers/producers, it would bring us a long way from eating mass-produced factory meat to something a bit more natural, and even then, meat should be a supplement, not the main course. Plus, Americans are fat and eat a lot. We're a gluttonous society, unashamed by our excess while others around the world starve and die of malnourishment. I think some of you are beginning to see the dim view I have of my own country. Again, I generalize and I know lots of decent people, but they are too few and far between.
Here's the op-ed: NYT Opinion piece: We're eating less meat. Why?
Birth control? nothxkbye
Oh. You were talking about livestock... interestingly, there's no fast food out there that's actually good for you or mostly comprised of fruits and vegetables. These sorts of organic health stores are wicked expensive. There are very few alternatives for lower-income individuals/families to afford eating properly, let alone not going hungry. Perhaps if government stopped subsidizing LARGE corporate factory farm operations, and instead focused on subsidizing local farmers/producers, it would bring us a long way from eating mass-produced factory meat to something a bit more natural, and even then, meat should be a supplement, not the main course. Plus, Americans are fat and eat a lot. We're a gluttonous society, unashamed by our excess while others around the world starve and die of malnourishment. I think some of you are beginning to see the dim view I have of my own country. Again, I generalize and I know lots of decent people, but they are too few and far between.
Here's the op-ed: NYT Opinion piece: We're eating less meat. Why?
philspursuk
Sean Davis
I found this documentary quite intriguing http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1286537/ Definitely worth a watch, it focuses on sustainability, and production.
papaspur
Kasey Keller
What are you, some kind of brain scientist?
I used to work in a research lab that did neuroimaging. We had a pretty large autism studies group within the lab, which was great for me as a learning experience. It's reassuring knowing that there are people with incredible mental aptitude putting their skills to work towards ideals and correcting moral issues in society.