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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

scaramanga said:
That's what happens when your military uses you as human shields.
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A lot of the destruction happened when everyone was gone. Not only the buildings but they destroyed fields of crops, olive groves, fishing boats, and basic infrastructure. They are destroying everything that makes the place liveable. At this point I don't see a whole lot of difference between the IDF's actions and Russia's scorched earth policy in Ukraine. This is ethnic cleansing.
 
scaramanga said:
I've already suggested a plan that would work along those lines. It wouldn't last though, because land is only a small part of the hatred from Palestinians.
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But your suggestion was very one-sided and abolished 'Palestine' in perpetuity for a single rocket fire.

it also doesn't recognise the significant hatred and issues on the Israel side of the Wall.
 
scaramanga said:
I get that.

But what do you think will happen when a ceasefire starts? Do you think Hamas will slink off into the night or will they re-arm, rebuild defences (under hospitals) and prepare to attack Israel again?
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But that is the point being made. This won't defeat and eliminate Hamas. They will just slink off and re-arm and be welcomed back because this whole thing has just radicalised and increased desperation (and hatred) in a significant proportion of Gaza youth and in the West Bank.

30,000 dead to maintain the status quo or even make it worse. Great reasoning for the continued ground offensive.
 
Rorschach said:
A lot of the destruction happened when everyone was gone. Not only the buildings but they destroyed fields of crops, olive groves, fishing boats, and basic infrastructure. They are destroying everything that makes the place liveable. At this point I don't see a whole lot of difference between the IDF's actions and Russia's scorched earth policy in Ukraine. This is ethnic cleansing.
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Exactly, it's gone way beyond just wanting rid of Hamas.
 
Trixster said:
Whose trusting Hamas numbers?

Pretty plain as day that I mentioned Israeli quotes of 5k and double that, for militants and civilians respectively, and the first comment was that the independent quotes (you so crave so much) are not far removed from what (as you would say) is peddled from Hamas sources.

Hamas may well hide behind the populace, but Israel has (well had cos it's too late now) the means to approach this totally different and undertaken a ground incursion - they have a far superior equipped and trained army. Yes, you may have lost a few more soldiers in the process but that's part and parcel of conflict.

What's happening now is far far removed from ""security"" or self-defence.
(Or is it the mandate that you can kill anyone who might become a militant? Sure I've seen something like a word or rule for that - not sure.)

However you want to try and spin it, the casualty toll of the innocents is appalling. And yes, I've said before, the precursor to all this was horrific too for the loss of life and brutality.
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Those Israeli estimates are significantly lower than the Hams ones aren't they? Pretty sure Hams are estimating that per hospital.

You seem to have forgotten that Israeli forces are taking every measure possible to evacuate areas before the conflict shifts. They're sending leaflets, broadcasts, messages via various apps, etc. Civilians remaining in those areas are there because of one group only, and that's not the Israelis.
 
Rorschach said:
A lot of the destruction happened when everyone was gone. Not only the buildings but they destroyed fields of crops, olive groves, fishing boats, and basic infrastructure. They are destroying everything that makes the place liveable. At this point I don't see a whole lot of difference between the IDF's actions and Russia's scorched earth policy in Ukraine. This is ethnic cleansing.
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Ethnic cleansing, yet all the people who lived in Palestine before the conflict are still in Palestine.

Not doing a very good job of it are they?
 
Lost Mango said:
But your suggestion was very one-sided and abolished 'Palestine' in perpetuity for a single rocket fire.

it also doesn't recognise the significant hatred and issues on the Israel side of the Wall.
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It's not one sided at all - it's both sides getting what they claim to want.

Palestinians want "their" land back, Israel wants security. So they both get what they want. Unless what Palestinians want isn't just "their" land....
 
Lost Mango said:
But that is the point being made. This won't defeat and eliminate Hamas. They will just slink off and re-arm and be welcomed back because this whole thing has just radicalised and increased desperation (and hatred) in a significant proportion of Gaza youth and in the West Bank.

30,000 dead to maintain the status quo or even make it worse. Great reasoning for the continued ground offensive.
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I'm fairly sure Israel can kill Hams faster that they can breed/grow/train them.
 
scaramanga said:
Ethnic cleansing, yet all the people who lived in Palestine before the conflict are still in Palestine.

Not doing a very good job of it are they?
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Except for the people they've killed, right?

The IDF has been brutally effective. They've corralled the population into a small area and are starving them to death.
 
Rorschach said:
Except for the people they've killed, right?

The IDF has been brutally effective. They've corralled the population into a small area and are starving them to death.
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Many people consider the Israeli army to be one of the best in the world.

If their intent is to kill Palestinians, they're getting an appalling kill per shell and kill per bullet rate against people who are not only unarmed but placed in the way of those bullets/shells by their own govt.

If the Israeli govt/army genuinely wanted genocide, there wouldn't be any Palestinians for you lot to be hand wringing over.
 
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scaramanga said:
Many people consider the Israeli army to be one of the best in the world.

If their intent is to kill Palestinians, they're getting an appalling kill per shell and kill per bullet rate against people who are not only unarmed but placed in the way of those bullets/shells by their own govt.

If the Israeli govt/army genuinely wanted genocide, there wouldn't be any Palestinians for you lot to be hand wringing over.
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That is such an abhorrent post I don't know where to start. I think I'll bow out of this thread.
 
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scaramanga said:
Many people consider the Israeli army to be one of the best in the world.

If their intent is to kill Palestinians, they're getting an appalling kill per shell and kill per bullet rate against people who are not only unarmed but placed in the way of those bullets/shells by their own govt.

If the Israeli govt/army genuinely wanted genocide, there wouldn't be any Palestinians for you lot to be hand wringing over.
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Sheesh, what was it? Double-clam Sunday?
I'd have a retort along the same lines but differing timestamps, but then I would lower myself to your position.
 
scaramanga said:
Many people consider the Israeli army to be one of the best in the world.

If their intent is to kill Palestinians, they're getting an appalling kill per shell and kill per bullet rate against people who are not only unarmed but placed in the way of those bullets/shells by their own govt.

If the Israeli govt/army genuinely wanted genocide, there wouldn't be any Palestinians for you lot to be hand wringing over.
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So they're being inefficient at genocide? Great...
 
scaramanga said:
Not retribution, security.

If you look at this through some ridiculous "eye for an eye" lens, then of course it will all seem like pointless killing. But think of this from a safety view. There is no alternative to removing Hamas from Palestine. If this war stops before Hamas is destroyed, then they will just regroup, rearm and do the same again. The only way to anything resembling peace is for Hamas to be destroyed - that won't happen through Western hand wringing or ceasefires.
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This "security" comes at the cost of immense suffering and the subjugation of the Palestinian people. It also doesn't actually bring security as others have pointed out and should be obvious. It's a continuation and escalation of what's already been tried and didn't bring security.

To you what is the example Israel should follow where this kind of thing has worked? What are the worthwhile comparisons to point to as a blueprint for making this work without a genocide?
 
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