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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

Trixster said:
""The Health Ministry is part of the Hamas-run government in Gaza but maintains detailed records of casualties. Its figures from previous wars in Gaza have largely matched those of U.N. agencies, independent experts and even Israel’s own tallies.""

So still flimflam then?
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So no independent count from this conflict?
 
Trixster said:
The poor sods could be on the fudging moon and you would still claim it legitimate to bomb that because Hamas is there.
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If Hamas were using them as human shields on the moon, of course I would.

It's absolutely preposterous that any human being would not want the complete destruction of an organisation like Hamas, but when it's the Jews involved, you can't count on people using logic and reasoning.
 
scaramanga said:
So no independent count from this conflict?
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Take a break from being a clam every day of the week :)
(Yes, I know the visits/clicks pay for your lifestyle)

You know full fudging well there are independent counts that are not that far removed from Gazza's MoH.
Even just last month Israel themselves estimated around 5k dead militants and double that for civvies. Or you don't believe anyone?
 
scaramanga said:
If Hamas were using them as human shields on the moon, of course I would.

It's absolutely preposterous that any human being would not want the complete destruction of an organisation like Hamas, but when it's the Jews involved, you can't count on people using logic and reasoning.
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Retribution for what happened on the 7th, yes okay I'll agree with that.
What's taking place now, five or six steps too far.

I'd say that regardless of who is involved. Want to play the Jewish aspect? (everyone's against us) - given what has happened in the past against the Jews, you should know fudging better than to lower yourselves to these scum levels. Human lives are, at the end of the day, human lives. Yet you justify extinguishing anyone's just because one person near them might be a clam.
 
Trixster said:
Take a break from being a clam every day of the week :)
(Yes, I know the visits/clicks pay for your lifestyle)

You know full fudging well there are independent counts that are not that far removed from Gazza's MoH.
Even just last month Israel themselves estimated around 5k dead militants and double that for civvies. Or you don't believe anyone?
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So if we're trusting Hamas and they're numbers, does that mean we have to ignore all the evidence at the al Hawhateverthefudge hospital and accept that thousands died from an Israeli missile and not dozens from an Hamas one?
 
Trixster said:
Retribution for what happened on the 7th, yes okay I'll agree with that.
What's taking place now, five or six steps too far.

I'd say that regardless of who is involved. Want to play the Jewish aspect? (everyone's against us) - given what has happened in the past against the Jews, you should know fudging better than to lower yourselves to these scum levels. Human lives are, at the end of the day, human lives. Yet you justify extinguishing anyone's just because one person near them might be a clam.
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Not retribution, security.

If you look at this through some ridiculous "eye for an eye" lens, then of course it will all seem like pointless killing. But think of this from a safety view. There is no alternative to removing Hamas from Palestine. If this war stops before Hamas is destroyed, then they will just regroup, rearm and do the same again. The only way to anything resembling peace is for Hamas to be destroyed - that won't happen through Western hand wringing or ceasefires.
 
Trixster said:
Retribution for what happened on the 7th, yes okay I'll agree with that.
What's taking place now, five or six steps too far.

I'd say that regardless of who is involved. Want to play the Jewish aspect? (everyone's against us) - given what has happened in the past against the Jews, you should know fudging better than to lower yourselves to these scum levels. Human lives are, at the end of the day, human lives. Yet you justify extinguishing anyone's just because one person near them might be a clam.
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And in doing so in a non targeted way playing into the hands of the Hamas leaders who are sat hundred of miles away in 5 Star hotels in the gulf, all while israel indirectly help create the next wave of recruits for them.

Wiping out today's Hamas whilst ruining the futures of the innocent you are only going to fuel the next generation to join Hamas when those leaders and pay masters regroup away from Gaza
 
scaramanga said:
Not retribution, security.

If you look at this through some ridiculous "eye for an eye" lens, then of course it will all seem like pointless killing. But think of this from a safety view. There is no alternative to removing Hamas from Palestine. If this war stops before Hamas is destroyed, then they will just regroup, rearm and do the same again. The only way to anything resembling peace is for Hamas to be destroyed - that won't happen through Western hand wringing or ceasefires.
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That's the attitude that didn't get the Good Friday Agreement and so far a sustained (more than less) peace in Ireland.

This won't remove Hamas. The only way to eliminate the poisonous politics of Hamas extremism is to create a sustainable less extreme situation that the majority of Palestinians (and Israelis) can live with.

That is probably a two state solution (given Israel wouldn't accept a one state solution that would eventually have an arab demographic majority). But it needs to be a 2 state solution where Palestine has control over it's external borders, where it has the ability to develop and prosper environmentally and economically and not be kept (deliberately) on the edge of starvation and poverty, driving people who generally don't care for the violence into the arms of terrorists and extremists as they are the only ones to offer (the fantasy of) change.

It means that Israel will have to accept UN resolutions and land borders that it doesn't want to accept to allow for the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state from the 'river to the sea' connecting the full de-settlered West Bank and Gaza -pre-1967 boundaries. It would include relinquishing east Jerusalem. It may even require Israel to pay reparations for stolen land in 1948 to balance the non-return to those lands of exiled forced 'migrants'. It should include the return of the Golan heights to Syria as well.

It would be a hard hit for Israel, especially the froth-at-the-mouth Settler movement and the current extreme right Government, but bombs and tanks have never won a peace.

There have been opportunities to achieve this before, but despite the US led narrative that it was the Arabs who derailed peace talks, the Israelis were to blame in most cases. Moderate Israelis need to accept that even if they flatten Gaza and settle the West Bank this won't eliminate indigenous extremism and that a political settlement that side lines Hamas is the only sustainable out from this mess.
 
scaramanga said:
If Hamas were using them as human shields on the moon, of course I would.

It's absolutely preposterous that any human being would not want the complete destruction of an organisation like Hamas, but when it's the Jews involved, you can't count on people using logic and reasoning.
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I have not seen anyone on here defending Hamas. We/they are defending the rights of the Palestinian people.

But what you are defending is beyond logic and reason as well.
 
Lost Mango said:
That's the attitude that didn't get the Good Friday Agreement and so far a sustained (more than less) peace in Ireland.

This won't remove Hamas. The only way to eliminate the poisonous politics of Hamas extremism is to create a sustainable less extreme situation that the majority of Palestinians (and Israelis) can live with.

That is probably a two state solution (given Israel wouldn't accept a one state solution that would eventually have an arab demographic majority). But it needs to be a 2 state solution where Palestine has control over it's external borders, where it has the ability to develop and prosper environmentally and economically and not be kept (deliberately) on the edge of starvation and poverty, driving people who generally don't care for the violence into the arms of terrorists and extremists as they are the only ones to offer (the fantasy of) change.

It means that Israel will have to accept UN resolutions and land borders that it doesn't want to accept to allow for the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state from the 'river to the sea' connecting the full de-settlered West Bank and Gaza -pre-1967 boundaries. It would include relinquishing east Jerusalem. It may even require Israel to pay reparations for stolen land in 1948 to balance the non-return to those lands of exiled forced 'migrants'. It should include the return of the Golan heights to Syria as well.

It would be a hard hit for Israel, especially the froth-at-the-mouth Settler movement and the current extreme right Government, but bombs and tanks have never won a peace.

There have been opportunities to achieve this before, but despite the US led narrative that it was the Arabs who derailed peace talks, the Israelis were to blame in most cases. Moderate Israelis need to accept that even if they flatten Gaza and settle the West Bank this won't eliminate indigenous extremism and that a political settlement that side lines Hamas is the only sustainable out from this mess.
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I've already suggested a plan that would work along those lines. It wouldn't last though, because land is only a small part of the hatred from Palestinians.
 
Lost Mango said:
I have not seen anyone on here defending Hamas. We/they are defending the rights of the Palestinian people.

But what you are defending is beyond logic and reason as well.
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I get that.

But what do you think will happen when a ceasefire starts? Do you think Hamas will slink off into the night or will they re-arm, rebuild defences (under hospitals) and prepare to attack Israel again?
 
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You are truly unhinged, almost everything you say is nonsense Scara. I guess it is easy embarrassing yourself as anon poster on your own website....
 
scaramanga said:
I get that.

But what do you think will happen when a ceasefire starts? Do you think Hamas will slink off into the night or will they re-arm, rebuild defences (under hospitals) and prepare to attack Israel again?
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There are no hospitals left. Nor any other buildings either.
 
LutonSpurs said:
You are truly unhinged, almost everything you say is nonsense Scara. I guess it is easy embarrassing yourself as anon poster on your own website....
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You know it's ok to just dip out of conversations you have no answer for. No need to stoop to the level of insults, you can just ask me to explain it in simpler terms for you.
 
scaramanga said:
So if we're trusting Hamas and they're numbers, does that mean we have to ignore all the evidence at the al Hawhateverthefudge hospital and accept that thousands died from an Israeli missile and not dozens from an Hamas one?
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Whose trusting Hamas numbers?

Pretty plain as day that I mentioned Israeli quotes of 5k and double that, for militants and civilians respectively, and the first comment was that the independent quotes (you so crave so much) are not far removed from what (as you would say) is peddled from Hamas sources.

Hamas may well hide behind the populace, but Israel has (well had cos it's too late now) the means to approach this totally different and undertaken a ground incursion - they have a far superior equipped and trained army. Yes, you may have lost a few more soldiers in the process but that's part and parcel of conflict.

What's happening now is far far removed from ""security"" or self-defence.
(Or is it the mandate that you can kill anyone who might become a militant? Sure I've seen something like a word or rule for that - not sure.)

However you want to try and spin it, the casualty toll of the innocents is appalling. And yes, I've said before, the precursor to all this was horrific too for the loss of life and brutality.
 
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