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Sick sick world what is wrong with people

There are 4 groups involved here:

1. Everyday Palestinians, down-trodden and fed up
2. Nutters from Hamas and Hamas-supporters

3. Everyday Israelis, going about their business
4. Nutters from Israel that want death and destruction

Loads of the protests and journalism conflate groups 1 and 2. They are not the same.
Loads of the protests and journalism conflate groups 3 and 4. They are not the same.

Some of the posts on this thread are doing the same. Be careful. Not all Germans in 1940 were Nazis.
 
Bullet said:
There are 4 groups involved here:

1. Everyday Palestinians, down-trodden and fed up
2. Nutters from Hamas and Hamas-supporters

3. Everyday Israelis, going about their business
4. Nutters from Israel that want death and destruction

Loads of the protests and journalism conflate groups 1 and 2. They are not the same.
Loads of the protests and journalism conflate groups 3 and 4. They are not the same.

Some of the posts on this thread are doing the same. Be careful. Not all Germans in 1940 were Nazis
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Well said
 
dawaxman said:
Would you be able to explain what the emboldened phrase means please?

Seems to me that you're implying that claiming antisemitism is commonly misused... am I reading that right?
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Yes, I'll be essentially repeating myself but with a bit more context to make myself clearer. A good example is in the post you've quoted, someone could not agree with a particular decision that the Israeli government makes and that is often erroneously labeled as antisemitism.

Or declaring that anyone that is on a march for peace is antisemitic. It's a dangerous misuse of the term. You could say that there may be antisemitic people there and I don't think anyone could disagree. As individuals, Jewish people have attended such marches and also criticized the Israel government. People retain the right of doing either of the above without being generalized as a racist / bigot.

However, labelling actions such as the horrendous abuse people get (whether we're speaking recent events or historically) for being Jewish is of course the correct use of the word, anything born out of hatred of the religion / race. Not to sound too flippant about in my pondering but I've never truly understood why that hatred does exist, unless it's mainly about folks killing each other in the name of GHod and all that kind of stuff,which again is a mystery to me..

Hope that clears that up and I shouldn't have to emphasize it but I'm not intending to downplay anything to do with the severity of antisemitism, but more the inaccurate usage of the word itself when it doesn't apply.
 
spurspinter1 said:
Yes, I'll be essentially repeating myself but with a bit more context to make myself clearer. A good example is in the post you've quoted, someone could not agree with a particular decision that the Israeli government makes and that is often erroneously labeled as antisemitism.

Or declaring that anyone that is on a march for peace is antisemitic. It's a dangerous misuse of the term. You could say that there may be antisemitic people there and I don't think anyone could disagree. As individuals, Jewish people have attended such marches and also criticized the Israel government. People retain the right of doing either of the above without being generalized as a racist / bigot.

However, labelling actions such as the horrendous abuse people get (whether we're speaking recent events or historically) for being Jewish is of course the correct use of the word, anything born out of hatred of the religion / race. Not to sound too flippant about in my pondering but I've never truly understood why that hatred does exist, unless it's mainly about folks killing each other in the name of GHod and all that kind of stuff,which again is a mystery to me..

Hope that clears that up and I shouldn't have to emphasize it but I'm not intending to downplay anything to do with the severity of antisemitism, but more the inaccurate usage of the word itself when it doesn't apply.
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Absolutely sensible framing of it TBH mate

I don't see it as helpful to mine and myothers real struggle against antisemitism when things are falsely labelled antisemitic for quick points when they are not. Devalues the bigger picture
 
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Grays_1890 said:
Absolutely sensible framing of it TBH mate

I don't see it as helpful to mine and myothers real struggle against antisemitism when things are falsely labelled antibsemitic for quick points when they are not. Devalues the bigger picture
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I'm glad that's clear, obviously language does evolve and definitions change but the dangerous misuse like this as you say devalues what the word actually means, and how serious it is.

It's on a different level and a different subject but it's a bit like the triggered muppets that have weaponised the word woke to mean "Sumfink I dont like becos theres gays n blacks in it".
 
spurspinter1 said:
Yes, I'll be essentially repeating myself but with a bit more context to make myself clearer. A good example is in the post you've quoted, someone could not agree with a particular decision that the Israeli government makes and that is often erroneously labeled as antisemitism.

Or declaring that anyone that is on a march for peace is antisemitic. It's a dangerous misuse of the term. You could say that there may be antisemitic people there and I don't think anyone could disagree. As individuals, Jewish people have attended such marches and also criticized the Israel government. People retain the right of doing either of the above without being generalized as a racist / bigot.

However, labelling actions such as the horrendous abuse people get (whether we're speaking recent events or historically) for being Jewish is of course the correct use of the word, anything born out of hatred of the religion / race. Not to sound too flippant about in my pondering but I've never truly understood why that hatred does exist, unless it's mainly about folks killing each other in the name of GHod and all that kind of stuff,which again is a mystery to me..

Hope that clears that up and I shouldn't have to emphasize it but I'm not intending to downplay anything to do with the severity of antisemitism, but more the inaccurate usage of the word itself when it doesn't apply.
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Thank you, genuinely

I agree with your post but I would like to ask your honest opinion on my post earlier today where I created an analogy of people peacefully protesting for better education and finding some amongst them are suggesting a way to achieve that which was racist... wouldn't it make these peaceful, non-racist marchers in some way complicit if they a) didn't say anything, b) joined in with some racist sing-song that they didn't fully understand or pretended not to understand and c) went along the following week, placards in hand, knowing full well that there'd be those same vulgar racists amongst them

Keen to hear how you position that - is it not antisemitic if you're just walking alongside the antisemites and humming along to the really, overtly racist bits?
 
dawaxman said:
Thank you, genuinely

I agree with your post but I would like to ask your honest opinion on my post earlier today where I created an analogy of people peacefully protesting for better education and finding some amongst them are suggesting a way to achieve that which was racist... wouldn't it make these peaceful, non-racist marchers in some way complicit if they a) didn't say anything, b) joined in with some racist sing-song that they didn't fully understand or pretended not to understand and c) went along the following week, placards in hand, knowing full well that there'd be those same vulgar racists amongst them

Keen to hear how you position that - is it not antisemitic if you're just walking alongside the antisemites and humming along to the really, overtly racist bits?
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No worries, I don't want to seem overly worried about semantics when real terrible things are happening but clarity of language is important and when possible I'm not in to mass generalisations.

It is an interesting point, I guess it comes down to the idea of whether not saying or doing something when you see something wrong makes you complicit in that act.

For myself, I'd like to think that if I was involved in any kind of march for whatever cause, if I saw something that was considered hate speech / bigotry I'd call it out but the reality is that can be a dangerous thing to do. People don't like being told they're not allowed to say / do something and when called out often double down or become aggressive. I don't want to be too sensationalist but the times as they are in the UK it seems dangerous to be calling people out on anything, even if you are in the right to do so. Perhaps that's cowardly but I've had a lot of incidents of getting involved with things like that and getting in trouble for it. If you're in a large group of people in aid of one cause it's not a given every is going to aligned on every issue but one would hope if certain members of the group held unsavoury views, that they would not feel brave enough to air them due to the confines of hate speech and consequences of crossing that line.

Your B point raises an interesting parallel with people who may be genuinely offended by Spurs fans use of the Y word but obviously that's a bit of a tangent. As for C, I suppose I would attend, it'd be a bit like if I heard a Spurs fan shouting something racist, the intention of Spurs isn't to further bigotry and it's not the club's fault that person said what they said, but between the fans and the club there is a collective responsibility to report that fan for it to be dealt with. Hope that makes sense and it doesn't seem like I'm sitting on the fence, I think I understand the analogy but I might have not fully got it.
 
spurspinter1 said:
No doubt Marky will hold his hands up and apologize for spreading hateful false material designed to get his demographic all hot and bothered. That's definitely what will happen........
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I’m genuinely curious how such propaganda appeared on his timeline and how easily susceptible he is to it.
 
TBH though, how does anyone know that people are not calling it out at the marches? What about those with genuine intentions who don't have the benefit of TV or being able to see the pockets of trouble?

It seems a convenient stroke to say that everyone, including Jews (of who there are many) are complicit in anti Semitism.

It goes back slightly to the argument that Palestinians are somehow to blame for their woes because of who they vote for which is a ridiculous notion BTW.

Are we Jews complicit because of the association with Netanyahu and his right wing views? Do we take a blame for not calling out or for every extreme view that exist on our side? Do we deserve what we get for having a murderous leader intent on indiscriminate murder? Would be a sad world if everyone used those standards for judgement IMO, well it is a sad world TBH

The same people who keep parroting on about picking sides seem to be those less willing to objectively meet in the middle IMO
 
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spurspinter1 said:
No worries, I don't want to seem overly worried about semantics when real terrible things are happening but clarity of language is important and when possible I'm not in to mass generalisations.

It is an interesting point, I guess it comes down to the idea of whether not saying or doing something when you see something wrong makes you complicit in that act.

For myself, I'd like to think that if I was involved in any kind of march for whatever cause, if I saw something that was considered hate speech / bigotry I'd call it out but the reality is that can be a dangerous thing to do. People don't like being told they're not allowed to say / do something and when called out often double down or become aggressive. I don't want to be too sensationalist but the times as they are in the UK it seems dangerous to be calling people out on anything, even if you are in the right to do so. Perhaps that's cowardly but I've had a lot of incidents of getting involved with things like that and getting in trouble for it. If you're in a large group of people in aid of one cause it's not a given every is going to aligned on every issue but one would hope if certain members of the group held unsavoury views, that they would not feel brave enough to air them due to the confines of hate speech and consequences of crossing that line.

Your B point raises an interesting parallel with people who may be genuinely offended by Spurs fans use of the Y word but obviously that's a bit of a tangent. As for C, I suppose I would attend, it'd be a bit like if I heard a Spurs fan shouting something racist, the intention of Spurs isn't to further bigotry and it's not the club's fault that person said what they said, but between the fans and the club there is a collective responsibility to report that fan for it to be dealt with. Hope that makes sense and it doesn't seem like I'm sitting on the fence, I think I understand the analogy but I might have not fully got it.
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Thank you, appreciate the response
 
Bullet said:
There are 4 groups involved here:

1. Everyday Palestinians, down-trodden and fed up
2. Nutters from Hamas and Hamas-supporters

3. Everyday Israelis, going about their business
4. Nutters from Israel that want death and destruction

Loads of the protests and journalism conflate groups 1 and 2. They are not the same.
Loads of the protests and journalism conflate groups 3 and 4. They are not the same.

Some of the posts on this thread are doing the same. Be careful. Not all Germans in 1940 were Nazis.
Click to expand...
This is a good post, and one might argue that there are a few more categories that blur the lines between these groups. Nevertheless, it is a point well made. The actions of 2 and 4 are both inhumane in their own way and both can be condemned for what they are. This is the position most have taken in this thread as you have pointed out.

One minor critique would be that your last point is an open goal for the good German counterargument. I think NI is probably a more comparable situation but also not a perfect comparison for reasons I probably don't need to go into and also I'm too drunk to type about.
 
spurspinter1 said:
No worries, I don't want to seem overly worried about semantics when real terrible things are happening but clarity of language is important and when possible I'm not in to mass generalisations.

It is an interesting point, I guess it comes down to the idea of whether not saying or doing something when you see something wrong makes you complicit in that act.

For myself, I'd like to think that if I was involved in any kind of march for whatever cause, if I saw something that was considered hate speech / bigotry I'd call it out but the reality is that can be a dangerous thing to do. People don't like being told they're not allowed to say / do something and when called out often double down or become aggressive. I don't want to be too sensationalist but the times as they are in the UK it seems dangerous to be calling people out on anything, even if you are in the right to do so. Perhaps that's cowardly but I've had a lot of incidents of getting involved with things like that and getting in trouble for it. If you're in a large group of people in aid of one cause it's not a given every is going to aligned on every issue but one would hope if certain members of the group held unsavoury views, that they would not feel brave enough to air them due to the confines of hate speech and consequences of crossing that line.

Your B point raises an interesting parallel with people who may be genuinely offended by Spurs fans use of the Y word but obviously that's a bit of a tangent. As for C, I suppose I would attend, it'd be a bit like if I heard a Spurs fan shouting something racist, the intention of Spurs isn't to further bigotry and it's not the club's fault that person said what they said, but between the fans and the club there is a collective responsibility to report that fan for it to be dealt with. Hope that makes sense and it doesn't seem like I'm sitting on the fence, I think I understand the analogy but I might have not fully got it.
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I personally know people that have marched and they didn’t witness any hate speech or similar whatsoever. They wouldn’t have stood for it if they had. However, outside of the official March organisers control there are said to have been splinter groups operating for nefarious purposes, based around religious extremism. I don’t often give the Met credit but they’ve been quick to identify and arrest people using social media as a tool.

The ‘hate speech’ that is being referred to as mainstream antisemitism is the ‘river to the sea’ chant. This is a decent and fair explainer which you probably wouldn’t find in domestic press:

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/...-what-does-the-palestinian-slogan-really-mean
 
spurspinter1 said:
I'm glad that's clear, obviously language does evolve and definitions change but the dangerous misuse like this as you say devalues what the word actually means, and how serious it is.

It's on a different level and a different subject but it's a bit like the triggered muppets that have weaponised the word woke to mean "Sumfink I dont like becos theres gays n blacks in it".
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Worth a thread on its own.
 
spurspinter1 said:
It's absolutely a valid point, be disgusted by all of it or none of it. It's all a brick show where humanity lets itself down and innocent people suffer. But, again, I haven't seen anyone supporting Hamas' actions yet that accusation has been thrown around on here by one poster in particular. I'm wary of being a hypocrite as I can get a bit heated on much more trivial matters but when possible it's best to have a discussion in good faith without resorting to insults or false accusations (obviously not aimed at yourself).

FWIW there's also been the standard vile misuse of the term anti-Semitism, it's obviously rife and is a massive problem but to label everyone who attends a pro peace match as anti semitic is ridiculous. But it's from posters who there is just no point debating with on such matters. It's like the suggestion that any criticism of Israeli government must be born of antisemitism, it absolutely could be but there's plenty of Jewish people that don't back certain actions taken and also have attended the marches hoping to reach a ceasefire (even if it's not feasible that Hamas will truly adhere to one, I'll say it myself before someone jumps at the chance).
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To be fair, I don’t think even the most vociferous on here have said anything about the Israeli government and not backing them being antisemitic. But otherwise I take your point. I’ve been labelled here too at various times (called a racist for criticising Muslims and also accused of being antisemitic). And in fact the only thing I’d tag you, myself and fellow ggers with is being a polemicist.
 
Grays_1890 said:
Can't go wrong with this guy on your side

https://x.com/i/web/status/1722923817532612979
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As I don't live in the UK have no idea who he is. if he is going to cause trouble can't the police grab him before he gets there. Why let fudgewits on both sides any where near each other. It kicked off in Melbourne yesterday when Palestinian protesters decided it was a good idea to protest outside a synagogue. What did they think would happen.
 
kb 1984 said:
As I don't live in the UK have no idea who he is. if he is going to cause trouble can't the police grab him before he gets there. Why let fudgewits on both sides any where near each other. It kicked off in Melbourne yesterday when Palestinian protesters decided it was a good idea to protest outside a synagogue. What did they think would happen.
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You are lucky. Blokes one of the gobby right wing bigots we have here, such a scumbag he had to change his name. Famous for beating up anyone that looks or sounds any different to himself.

I imagine he will send his cronies in to stir up trouble whilst verbal jousting from behind
 
Grays_1890 said:
You are lucky. Blokes one of the gobby right wing bigots we have here, such a scumbag he had to change his name. Famous for beating up anyone that looks or sounds any different to himself.

I imagine he will send his cronies in to stir up trouble whilst verbal jousting from behind
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We have right wing nut jobs here to. They even had to bring laws in to stop Nazi salutes, slogans & parafanalia.they would show up at protests all dressed in black & carry on like dingdongheads. Now there are laws in place nowhere to be seen.
 
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