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Ross Barkley

braineclipse said:
I would include Winks in that 15/16. Two academy players getting to that level, a very high level as you point out. Several others playing their part for a while before being sold for considerable amounts. Over 3 years that's a very good rate for me.

Buying players with potential is certainly part of it. Including several players signed before Pochettino. But particularly with the lower profile young players signed Pochettino's approach of making these players an important part of the squad has been significant in the success. I can very easily see players like Dier and Alli having much worse trajectory at other clubs under different managers with other approaches. Where they might not have gotten the same trust and squad roles.

You say Kane forced his way in. But would he have been able to that if Pochettino had done what many fans wanted and signed a new striker in his first summer? Undoubtedly many other managers would have done just that. Similar story with Winks. You might call it a lack of quality from other players. But from where I'm seeing this it's been a conscious choice to not sign more experienced players to leave the path open for these younger players. Including Alli and Dier. Again look at who we didn't sign, or which roles we didn't sign players for. The failed transfers haven't been in the positions where the youngsters have then succeeded, they've been for roles where we haven't had any young players breaking through.

Onomah and CCV are still very young. Particularly for their positions (assuming a deep midfield role for Onomah). Not sure what more should have been expected so far or how predictive their past performances are for their future performances.
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I posted initially questioning the strength of our squad players outside of the 15/16 because GB keeps making references to a tight squad of 22 like what Mourhino tries to build - if we want a squad of 22, no more and we include young players that aren't ready to make an impact in that then we are making lives difficult for ourselves because in reality that is a tight squad of 15/16 with 6/7 players making up the numbers which are either not good enough or not experienced enough to have any real impact - which severely limits our ability to compete on all fronts, especially when our rivals all look like building squads with serious depth (even if our first team still looks stronger)

What part of that do you actually disagree with?


Edit : Pochettino may like to leave a route to the first team for the younger players but they had that route last season and how many minutes did the 6/7 rack up between them? Not a lot eh, which would suggest to me he doesn't quite trust them as much as some of you seem to think.
 
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billyiddo said:
I posted initially questioning the strength of our squad players outside of the 15/16 because GB keeps making references to a tight squad of 22 like what Mourhino tries to build - if we want a squad of 22, no more and we include young players that aren't ready to make an impact in that then we are making lives difficult for ourselves because in reality that is a tight squad of 15/16 with 6/7 players making up the numbers which are either not good enough or not experienced enough to have any real impact - which severely limits our ability to compete on all fronts, especially when our rivals all look like building squads with serious depth (even if our first team still looks stronger)

What part of that do you actually disagree with?


Edit : Pochettino may like to leave a route to the first team for the younger players but they had that route last season and how many minutes did the 6/7 rack up between them? Not a lot eh, which would suggest to me he doesn't quite trust them as much as some of you seem to think.
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2CV - 4
Wimmer - 8 (but 21 in 15-16)
Vorm - 11
Onomah - 12
Lamela - 12
GKN - 14

Were our lowest appearances last season. CBs and GKs aren't rotated, while Lamela was obviously injured. Sissoko (33) and Janssen (35) actually clocked up a decent amount of apps.

Onomah he seems to trust as a late sub in big games, although he's using him in a less pressured AM role, rather than CM.
 
Do you have minutes to go with those starts GB? And is that all competitions or league only?

Would be interesting to see the minutes played for them compared to the players in the 15/16 who are getting rotated in - will illustrate the point better as we'd have something to compare those numbers to

Edit:
If Janssen and Sissoko are getting that many games whilst not really impressing then I think that backs my point that we need more quality in reserve...
 
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billyiddo said:
Do you have minutes to go with those starts GB? And is that all competitions or league only?

Would be interesting to see the minutes played for them compared to the players in the 15/16 who are getting rotated in - will illustrate the point better as we'd have something to compare those numbers to

Edit:
If Janssen and Sissoko are getting that many games whilst not really impressing then I think that backs my point that we need more quality in reserve...
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No minutes I'm afraid and that's all competitions.

Janssen covered Kane's two spells injured, where I think Sissoko got used more than he probably should have because of his reputation/fee (and Lamela's injury).
 
Gutter Boy said:
2CV - 4
Wimmer - 8 (but 21 in 15-16)
Vorm - 11
Onomah - 12
Lamela - 12
GKN - 14

Were our lowest appearances last season. CBs and GKs aren't rotated, while Lamela was obviously injured. Sissoko (33) and Janssen (35) actually clocked up a decent amount of apps.

Onomah he seems to trust as a late sub in big games, although he's using him in a less pressured AM role, rather than CM.
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Interesting that GKN got the most appearances. Obviously Lamela's injury restricted him but good to see Onomah is clearly on Poch's radar. Sissoko 33 depresses me a bit.
 
awesome dawson said:
Interesting that GKN got the most appearances. Obviously Lamela's injury restricted him but good to see Onomah is clearly on Poch's radar. Sissoko 33 depresses me a bit.
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I wouldn't write off GKN being a more integral part of the squad next season. He has pace and he has trickery. And without a run of games it's difficult to tell what he can really contribute. I mean, we're judging him on cameos mainly, and with one season under his belt he could be a much improved player next season. Couple that with the fact that there aren't any rumors of us looking for a pacy frontline player and maybe Poch has something up his sleeve with this lad.
 
alekaras said:
I wouldn't write off GKN being a more integral part of the squad next season. He has pace and he has trickery. And without a run of games it's difficult to tell what he can really contribute. I mean, we're judging him on cameos mainly, and with one season under his belt he could be a much improved player next season. Couple that with the fact that there aren't any rumors of us looking for a pacy frontline player and maybe Poch has something up his sleeve with this lad.
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He really needs some game time, and he's unlikely to get that much with us next year. I'd like to see us loan him out to a PL team for a year and where he can get a look of starts, similar to how we did with Rose/Sunderland. My big concern with him is that he looks and plays like an out and out winger....which we dont and a natural winger takes up the space which Rose runs into so effectively
 
billyiddo said:
I posted initially questioning the strength of our squad players outside of the 15/16 because GB keeps making references to a tight squad of 22 like what Mourhino tries to build - if we want a squad of 22, no more and we include young players that aren't ready to make an impact in that then we are making lives difficult for ourselves because in reality that is a tight squad of 15/16 with 6/7 players making up the numbers which are either not good enough or not experienced enough to have any real impact - which severely limits our ability to compete on all fronts, especially when our rivals all look like building squads with serious depth (even if our first team still looks stronger)

What part of that do you actually disagree with?


Edit : Pochettino may like to leave a route to the first team for the younger players but they had that route last season and how many minutes did the 6/7 rack up between them? Not a lot eh, which would suggest to me he doesn't quite trust them as much as some of you seem to think.
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My main disagreement is with regards to your final paragraph. I believe quite strongly that Pochettino does just that.

I don't know where you get the 6/7 number from? Are those the 6/7 players that make up the rest of the 22 man squad? If so most of them are not youth players and I'm not suggesting youth players should fill all those roles.

Assuming 22 as a first 11 and backup 11 we had 11+ Vorm, Davies, Trippier, Dier/Son (depending on formation), Winks and Lamela that we ended up happy about at the end of the season. That's 17. The additional 5 for me are Wimmer, Nkoudou, Sissoko Janssen and then either CCV or Onomah depending on how you see it.

Winks got significant game time. For me one young player stepping up in a season is plenty. I certainly wouldn't expect more than 2 as realistic. I don't think the plan was for more than him to step up. There wasn't a route left open for anyone else I would argue. Looking back similar paths have been left open for young players every year so far.

But several of the new signings failed to make an impact. That left us a bit too weak at times. They were signed for positions where we didn't have youngsters ready to step up. Had Edwards been a couple years older perhaps we hadn't signed Sissoko.

It's not a question of trusting 6/7 youth players with significant game time in the same season. It's making one or two young players an actual part of the squad when they look ready. Instead of doing what other clubs do and fill a 22+ man squad of proven players and younger players being left waiting for injuries to even get in a match day squad. Pochettino's approach with us and Southampton seems clear and consistent. I struggle to see how his trust in young players can be questioned.
 
Gutter Boy said:
2CV - 4
Wimmer - 8 (but 21 in 15-16)
Vorm - 11
Onomah - 12
Lamela - 12
GKN - 14

Were our lowest appearances last season. CBs and GKs aren't rotated, while Lamela was obviously injured. Sissoko (33) and Janssen (35) actually clocked up a decent amount of apps.

Onomah he seems to trust as a late sub in big games, although he's using him in a less pressured AM role, rather than CM.
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PL minutes:

CCV 0
Wimmer 357
Vorm 415
GKN 49
Onomah 18
Lamela 593
Janssen 832
Sissoko 903
 
The 6/7 number is just the reverse of the 15/16 first team/squad players that I think are of the required quality to be where we want to be - outside of that core group I don't think we are strong enough to juggle the 4 competitions we are involved with because the players who make up the numbers are either not good enough or not experienced enough. If you think they are good enough to contribute to us challenging on all fronts then that's fine but I entirely disagree with that based on what we have seen this past season or two
 
This is a signing that splits opinion.
I think poch can make it happen for him.

I really am asking a genuine question; has anyone made average look phenomenal like poch does?

All players past and present cannot deny poch and neither can us fans in his development of players.

If poch thinks that Ross can do a job for us next year then I'll back it and not point the finger if it back fires. Whoever we get, there will be a risk, due to our financial limitations of buying players at their peak.

I can understand some people's alternative views but if any one can make Barkley a world beater, then it wouldn't it be poch?

The cynic in me tells me that Barkley is a levy special and poch has to swallow it. How does Barkley even have the balls to step up and oust someone in the first XI during a world cup year? Are we not in a win win situation here?

I hate to break it to some of you, but accept until that stadium is built we can't go fishing for the big players. When was the last time we actually went out and landed a player in the world class category, with years to go?

This is our transfer model and so be it. If the academy players can do a job better than transferred players, then you all know poch will do the right thing. So over to you josh onomah go get your shirt if you are good enough. And good luck to you!

Im also sure if se can get a pace player and a RB, Barkley will be digested a little easier by some.
 
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billyiddo said:
The 6/7 number is just the reverse of the 15/16 first team/squad players that I think are of the required quality to be where we want to be - outside of that core group I don't think we are strong enough to juggle the 4 competitions we are involved with because the players who make up the numbers are either not good enough or not experienced enough. If you think they are good enough to contribute to us challenging on all fronts then that's fine but I entirely disagree with that based on what we have seen this past season or two
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I agree that Sissoko, Wimmer, Nkoudou and Janssen didn't do enough last season. And that Onomah, CCV, Edwards etc had essentially zero impact or value to our performance. But Winks made a big impact and did so in part because he was given a genuine chance.

We've been very successful with (youth) development under Pochettino. Both academy and signed players. Continuing this is imo key to our continued success at least up until the point where the stadium is paid for. And for me it should be important for us way beyond that as I think it will be key to our success even when we have more money.

A huge part of our success in youth development has been trusting these young players as a meaningful part of the (22 man) squad. The failure to do this is imo a big part of why other clubs like City and Chelsea have essentially failed at this. And why we often failed pre Pochettino. Pochettino's approach has been hugely successful both at Southampton and with us. Continuing to accept 1-2 younger more or less unproven players with those squad roles is for me the obvious choice for us.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't sign anyone. Just that we should accept not signing anyone for those positions where a young player is looking ready to step up based on Pochettino's judgement.

And again our shortcomings in squad depth last season was primarily a result of new signings not making an impact.
 
Barkley makes sense for a number of reasons. First and foremost he has (English) talent. He's relatively young, and fits the profile of players Poch like - hard working, strong, athletic. If he lets Poch coach him, he will become a more rounded player most likely.

Second, Everton were going all guns blazing for Sissoko last season. Sissoko + ££ for Barkley could be a winner. Sissoko would probably do alright at Everton.

I think Barkley could be a bit like Bentaleb. A player who has streaks of brilliance one game, but can be quite average as well. But he has the temperament to work hard and improve, and as Kane has shown, you can become whatever you want to be if you work at it.

I hope we sign him and subsidise the transfer with Sissoko going the other way.
 
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braineclipse said:
I agree that Sissoko, Wimmer, Nkoudou and Janssen didn't do enough last season. And that Onomah, CCV, Edwards etc had essentially zero impact or value to our performance. But Winks made a big impact and did so in part because he was given a genuine chance.

We've been very successful with (youth) development under Pochettino. Both academy and signed players. Continuing this is imo key to our continued success at least up until the point where the stadium is paid for. And for me it should be important for us way beyond that as I think it will be key to our success even when we have more money.

A huge part of our success in youth development has been trusting these young players as a meaningful part of the (22 man) squad. The failure to do this is imo a big part of why other clubs like City and Chelsea have essentially failed at this. And why we often failed pre Pochettino. Pochettino's approach has been hugely successful both at Southampton and with us. Continuing to accept 1-2 younger more or less unproven players with those squad roles is for me the obvious choice for us.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't sign anyone. Just that we should accept not signing anyone for those positions where a young player is looking ready to step up based on Pochettino's judgement.

And again our shortcomings in squad depth last season was primarily a result of new signings not making an impact.
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My point, which I have repeated several times now, is that I don't think those young players on the fringes are good enough at the moment OR that they are trusted enough by the manager to make any kind of impact, not that i dont agree with developing young players or realise its importance.

If Pochettino thinks they are good enough to make an impact and they do then great but if they clock up similar numbers of minutes/appearances as last season while players like Sissoko get used far more regularly then I'd suggest that it will have been a mistake.
 
Gazza said:
I think it highlights that he can pass with accuracy and has as eye for an assist.
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That depends very much on how the chances were created. Long balls out wide that Lukaku ran onto and picked up doesn't take much of an eye.
 
doesnt really tell you much as a simple pass to a team mate who then shoots from distance would go down as a chance created from outside the box i presume? hard to tell with the way it is worded
 
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