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Putin & Russia

Glenda's Legs said:
As mentioned in the “what happened today thread” we had a chat this evening with someone we had originally earmarked as “Eastern European” but who it transpires is Russian (lesson learned in the past, since forgotten, now re-learned - don’t assume English isn’t understood/spoken just because the person doesn’t appear to react to the language). Anyway, we had a good chat about our holiday in Russia but eventually the elephant in the room was too much and I had to ask about Putin and Ukraine. This was someone well travelled and (despite questionable childcare skills), clearly far from stupid. Yet he was totally bought into Putin, didn’t believe all the Western justification for supporting the Ukrainian resistance, believes Ukraine to be essentially Russian, strongly believed that Putin has over 80% support of the population (talks of rigged elections are bogus western meddling), acknowledged that someone probably poisoned Navalny but it wouldn’t have been Putin-led as there was no need as Navalny’s popularity was sinking fast, and generally felt that Putin has good control over the whole situation (no madness or irrational behaviour) and is well supported.
The whole conversation was quite surreal. I did ask him what he thought of being able to see coverage overseas that he wouldn’t be allowed to see in Russia but he dismissed it as untrue propaganda. It was thoroughly disconcerting. I wasn’t going to get into an argument with him - not appropriate on holiday - but it was very shocking to hear such a viewpoint from someone whom I would have expected to be more wordly- wise, as it were.
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I have no love of putin and what he is doing in Ukraine is abhorrent, but i think we have to be careful jumping to conclusions on the average Russian.
Its not just at this present time that they have had limited access to outside media, its been like that for a long time.
The propaganda that they do get has been going on even longer, those combined are a difficult wall to break through.
There's also a possibility that they feel that they, as in the Russian people, are getting blamed and are doubling down on it.
As you have found out in their attitudes to child care, people and societies are different and don't always have the same outlook, would be interesting to hear what they thought on some our actions.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
As maddening as it is to me my Latvian friend sort of takes Putin side, has said the west put to many sanctions on him. He gets to see both news reports so should have more sense.

But it is interesting how people pick sides. Not heard a lot on here at the reports today of EU countries selling arms to Russia even after an embargo or how Macron give the ok to sell them chemical warfare in 2014 when he was finance minister.

Not heard ant response to the Ukrainian presidents claims that Germany has blood on it's hands because of continuing to trade for steel, aluminium etc from Russia. No not heard a lot about that today on here.
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If we were still part of the eu maybe we could instigate change in some of those short comings ;)
 
glasgowspur said:
I have no love of putin and what he is doing in Ukraine is abhorrent, but i think we have to be careful jumping to conclusions on the average Russian.
Its not just at this present time that they have had limited access to outside media, its been like that for a long time.
The propaganda that they do get has been going on even longer, those combined are a difficult wall to break through.
There's also a possibility that they feel that they, as in the Russian people, are getting blamed and are doubling down on it.
As you have found out in their attitudes to child care, people and societies are different and don't always have the same outlook, would be interesting to hear what they thought on some our actions.
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This is of CRITICAL importance right now, or else we will end up doing Putin's job for him with regards to mobilizing Russian support for the filth he is engaging in. Wholly agreed!
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
As maddening as it is to me my Latvian friend sort of takes Putin side, has said the west put to many sanctions on him. He gets to see both news reports so should have more sense.

But it is interesting how people pick sides. Not heard a lot on here at the reports today of EU countries selling arms to Russia even after an embargo or how Macron give the ok to sell them chemical warfare in 2014 when he was finance minister.

Not heard ant response to the Ukrainian presidents claims that Germany has blood on it's hands because of continuing to trade for steel, aluminium etc from Russia. No not heard a lot about that today on here.
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Mentioned on here a couple of weeks ago, that sanctions just pushed the Russian people towards Putin. The opposite of what is intended.

Can add the cluster bombs, aircraft, training from these shores that enable the killing of innocent people in Yemen. No one gives two hoots though. Made in factories near our homes, killing families and kids in Yemen, there is almost no outcry whatsoever.
 
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DTA said:
If we were still part of the eu maybe we could instigate change in some of those short comings ;)
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We never got anything in the way of concessions from them. If we had Cameron would have won his referendum.

But you are side stepping the issue, as you did it with a wink emoji all is good and we can forget about the fact it is European weapons brought during a period of sanctions that is killing Ukrainians all the while they and us to be far keep Putin in power by continuing to buy from him(we are pulling out sooner but arguably not soon enough)

Surely the much vaunted EU does not need the barbaric and racist brits to teach them about ethics, is that what you are suggesting ;)
 
SpurMeUp said:
Mentioned on here a couple of weeks ago, that sanctions just pushed the Russian people towards Putin. The opposite of what is intended.

Can add the cluster bombs, aircraft, training from these shores that enable the killing of innocent people in Yemen. No one gives too hoots though. Made in factories near our homes, killing families and kids in Yemen, there is almost no outcry whatsoever.
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Your whataboutism has been noted and I agree with actually. But not thinking two wrongs make a right and as you are such a fan of the EU thing.

How about you deal with the issue at hand here. The one on the continent we are a part of. The EU lectures us on obeying laws, its own members are breaking some massive rules by selling arms and chemicals in Macron's France case to a dictator who is killing people in Ukraine and causing chaos across your beloved Europe.

You want to discuss Yemen and you would be right to discussing the conflict and trouble in the middle East try a thread not titled Putin an Russia.

I expect you to come back with a retort about how actions need to be consistent, and not debate what France have been doing with selling weapons to Russia or Germany buying raw materials from them. I wait with interest to see what steps the EU takes against its to biggest economies.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
We never got anything in the way of concessions from them. If we had Cameron would have won his referendum.

But you are side stepping the issue, as you did it with a wink emoji all is good and we can forget about the fact it is European weapons brought during a period of sanctions that is killing Ukrainians all the while they and us to be far keep Putin in power by continuing to buy from him(we are pulling out sooner but arguably not soon enough)

Surely the much vaunted EU does not need the barbaric and racist brits to teach them about ethics, is that what you are suggesting ;)
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the thing is, I don’t hold the Eu up on any kind of pedal stool, and I never have. It’s flawed and like most systems needs ethical as well as other reforms. I do still believe though that we would be better off in it than out of it. I also believe that the eu would be better and stronger for us being in it rather than out of it.

but it is what it is, we are out now, so let’s see where it goes for us, I hope it was the right decision, but I see no evidence that it is as of yet… especially with these jokers in charge.
 
https://twitter.com/x/status/1504579287118196742

Ukrainian intelligence reports that Russia may have expended nearly its entire store of precision cruise missiles in the first twenty days of its invasion.

Ukrainian forces shot down 10 Russian aircraft—including five jets, three helicopters, and two UAVs—on March 16, and Ukrainian forces continue to successfully contest Russian air operations.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Your whataboutism has been noted and I agree with actually. But not thinking two wrongs make a right and as you are such a fan of the EU thing.

How about you deal with the issue at hand here. The one on the continent we are a part of. The EU lectures us on obeying laws, its own members are breaking some massive rules by selling arms and chemicals in Macron's France case to a dictator who is killing people in Ukraine and causing chaos across your beloved Europe.

You want to discuss Yemen and you would be right to discussing the conflict and trouble in the middle East try a thread not titled Putin an Russia.

I expect you to come back with a retort about how actions need to be consistent, and not debate what France have been doing with selling weapons to Russia or Germany buying raw materials from them. I wait with interest to see what steps the EU takes against its to biggest economies.
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Wasn't Brexit about autonomy and putting our own house in order? We can't influence France and the EU as much now. If we wanted to we should have stayed in the consortium of nations. While we respond emotionally and with donations and offers of our homes to Ukrainians - which we should - we look the other way while we export billions in arms to kill innocent people in Yemen. Far easier to look the other way and focus on others, but we have far more influence over our own affairs, especially post Brexit.
 
DTA said:
the thing is, I don’t hold the Eu up on any kind of pedal stool, and I never have. It’s flawed and like most systems needs ethical as well as other reforms. I do still believe though that we would be better off in it than out of it. I also believe that the eu would be better and stronger for us being in it rather than out of it.

but it is what it is, we are out now, so let’s see where it goes for us, I hope it was the right decision, but I see no evidence that it is as of yet… especially with these jokers in charge.
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Distracting from the main topic, but I love the idea of a “pedal stool”. It has so many potential uses, including combining gym and pub bar.
Sorry if being facetious but it made me chuckle.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
We never got anything in the way of concessions from them. If we had Cameron would have won his referendum.

But you are side stepping the issue, as you did it with a wink emoji all is good and we can forget about the fact it is European weapons brought during a period of sanctions that is killing Ukrainians all the while they and us to be far keep Putin in power by continuing to buy from him(we are pulling out sooner but arguably not soon enough)

Surely the much vaunted EU does not need the barbaric and racist brits to teach them about ethics, is that what you are suggesting ;)
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To be fair, we got loads of concessions - including the rebate.
Brits certainly can't take the morale high ground on ethics. But that's not to say Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Hungary etc are any better.

Lichtenstein is probably safe though
 
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