Politics, politics, politics

[Danishfurniturelover]

@nayimfromthehalfwayline when you liked the above, was it becuase you agree there should be a second vote.

"The vote to leave the European Union was influenced by a fantasy set of promises that have been shown as undeliverable, Jo Johnson has said, as he sought to explain his reasons for resigning from the cabinet on Friday.

The former transport minister accused the Brexit campaign – which was led, in part, by his brother Boris – of offering the public “a false prospectus” that bears little resemblance to the reality of the deal that the prime minister is to present to parliament.

He said it would be a democratic travesty not to go back to the people for another vote."

If he thinks the promises are undeliverable then it goes to show what a great job the civil service and politicians did in stopping and blocking what the people voted for. Also would suggest it would reinforce the belief with a lot of people that the EU is undemocratic, you can not get more undemocratic then stopping people leaving. The Russians tried that with east Berlin.

It is deliverable, it is just remain side has not accepted it and continue to hold positions of power so are blocking what people voted for. Now you could say that it will wreck the economy and do all untold harm to the country, but leaving the EU is deliverable it is just we do not have a government strong enough to go for it and a well organised remain campaign in positions of power and importance blocking every effort to reach a conclusion.

The northern Ireland "problem" is not a problem, do not put a border in there and just do checks away from the divide of the Republic and northern Ireland. If it is unacceptable to the EU they can put a border in there but it is on them not us. They are just using it as a way to try and stop us leaving and high profile remain voters in the UK are helping them.

 

[SpurMeUp]

@Danishfurniturelover the unfortunate truth is Brexit doesn't deliver anything of value to the people. What you're suggesting is a hard Brexit. But who wants to see all the thousands of car firm jobs go in Sunderland and Birgingham? Who wants to see our ports seize up, so its hard to get fresh food and vital drugs in or out the country? Who wants to make the UK poorer?

On the flip side, what do the people get in return? Nada.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

@Danishfurniturelover the unfortunate truth is Brexit doesn't deliver anything of value to the people. What you're suggesting is a hard Brexit. But who wants to see all the thousands of car firm jobs go in Sunderland and Birgingham? Who wants to see our ports seize up, so its hard to get fresh food and vital drugs in or out the country? Who wants to make the UK poorer?

On the flip side, what do the people get in return? Nada.

Well a hard Brexit gives us the sovereignty I would like. To have full control over our courts(need proper judges to go along with that though) to decide who we do business with and on what terms.

I would back it over a short term financial hit for what I think would be a longer term up turn financially.

Also I seriously doubt the car firms would have left if we had left without a deal because the were to many jobs at risk in Europe but we never had a leaver in control of the negotiations, May has been a remainer and still is, but she got her shot at Prime minister and when she leaves in a years time she will have her pick of high paid directorships to choose from so she wont care.

Your problem is that you have still not been able to get into the mindset of the people that voted leave. Your not one of the real bigots who accuse us all of being racists but you still struggle like so many remain people to understand why people voted leave and the is more then finances and also some people are able to take a long term view to things.

This was not meant as a criticism of you, more an observation that you lot still cant understand where we are coming from. Because despite 2 years of non stop negative stories and headlines, the doom and gloom that will happen if we leave. The opinion polls if they are to be believed still have leave at what is a high 44% only 4% down on what remain got last time round.

Why do you think so many still want to leave even with what people are saying about the economy?
Should leave accept the results of a second referendum if the was one?
Has the Johnson brother who is a remainer not just resigned at this time for major publicity (must run in that family)

 

[SpurMeUp]

@Danishfurniturelover I just don't see how real Brexit - not the imagined one - will deliver anything at all. That is the problem for me. Where will the longer term financial upturn you suggest come from? We can see the down turn and why it'd happen - not being to trade so freely with our largest market on our doorstep. I like the idea of revolution. But Brexit aint it. Closing off the UKs free trade and cooperation with its closest neighbours - which is what it is - is not something people voted for or in anyone's interests.

I think Johnson, in a perverse way, is possibly doing this to support his brother. They both agree a soft Brexit is a not in the UKs intersts. By weakening the cabinet, Boris may have more traction to launch a leadership bid. Both Johnsons are wealthy enough for the pain of Brexit to be academic for them. Its a game.

As for the myth that is sovereignty see the previous page on how the EU helps legitimise UK sovereignty in many ways. We currently have UK judges using predominatly UK laws to make decisions. Big deal there are some trade, polution, health and peoples rights laws from Europe that are harmless - well infact they protect people. Clean beaches etc. Don't try and tell me people were motivated to vote to end these laws? We both know that was not how Brexit was sold.

 

[milo]

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

Guessing the Times, from font and stance?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Not sure why we need another vote because we are not leaving the EU. Which is exactly what I have been saying on here for a long long time.

We might "leave" the EU, but we still be bound by their rules in all areas of life and we will still pay in, I suspect we might get some extra controls on immigration. Which is what Cameron was meant to get years ago, waste of a few years but it has kept us entertained haha.

Anyway on a far more important point, lets talk money and how we the good members of GG can try and come out ahead. Whats the angle? put some money on the pound expecting it to go up when traitor May signs a deal in the next couple of weeks.

How you guys going to play it?

Smart thinking Batman. I would say you could make 5-10%. BUT, there is more to run on this. When May announces the deal, its not going to get through parliment because everyone will come to the realisation that soft Brexit is worse than staying in the EU. So we'll faff about for a bit longer, before someone has a vote - for Prime Minister, for an election, for a Brexit re-vote. So between now and article 50 being rescinded, the currency traders will be coining it.

I can't see a hard brexit being delivered. Even if Boris managed to get in and take the reigns, I don't think he could deliver a hard brexit. The establishment, and the massive difficulties ahard Brexit presents - jobs/trade/customs etc - are beyond Boris. Even the most astute politician and organiser would need 5 to 10 years just to get the UKs house in order, never mind deal with the economic fall out.

 

[milo]

Guessing the Times, from font and stance?

Indeed

 

[the dza]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1060819371537416192

 

[the dza]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6374019/Jeremy-Corbyn-holds-meeting-head-MI6-time.html

Jeremy Corbyn has met the boss of MI6 for the first time amid concerns there could be another snap general election.

The Labour leader was given a briefing by the intelligence chief on potential threats to the nation.

It comes as the potential for another election has been predicted if Theresa May's Brexit negotiations fail.

...

According to the Daily Telegraph, Mr Younger invited Mr Corbyn to MI6's headquarters in Vauxhall, south London for an 'acquaintance session'.

A Whitehall source told the paper: 'The feeling was that the time had come for Mr Corbyn to become acquainted with the workings of the intelligence establishment.'

The source added he received a detailed briefing on MI6's organisational and operational structure.

 

[Baleforce]

Why Corbyn, shouldn’t it be the leader of the opposition?

 

[the dza]

Why Corbyn, shouldn’t it be the leader of the opposition?

I know right? If only Labour would totally oppose Brexit and refuse to acknowledge the referendum result, they'd be at least 20 points ahead in the polls, a real opposition. As proof of this, just look at how the Lib Dems have rebounded from their 2017 lows, to now be polling at around 20%, as the real opposition to the government.

Ok, I'll stop being a sarky qunt for a minute (just a minute). Survation (the lefty's favourite pollster) came out with a poll the other day, perhaps a bit more interesting than others because of the very large sample size (20,000+). Which means that (so I've read) the sub-sections of the poll are more accurate than normal polls (where, the demographic breakdowns might only sample 100 people). Anyway, these are the headline voting intention figures from that poll:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1060866894725550081

And from the data within that poll, the ever helpful 'Stats for Lefties' Twitter says this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1060886226536935424

and more importantly, this:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1061273678237851649

 

[SpurMeUp]

Politics is often a case not of how you play the game, but how you place the blame. No one does this more assiduously and mendaciously than the Brexiters. Their game is approaching its climax and we can smell their fear that it is going to end very badly. This is why their fiercest energies are now directed to diverting culpability on to anyone’s shoulders but their own.

The person they have allotted to play the principal spacegoat is Theresa May. The prime minister will not be alone on their bogus charge list. They will finger others who supposedly sabotaged a beautiful idea, a cast that will include quisling civil servants, the treacherous Treasury, recalcitrant Remoaners, meddling judges and bullies in Brussels. They will all have roles in the self-exculpating blame game the Brexiters plan to play, but it is the prime minister who is being assigned the part of chief villain. Once, when she was foolishly following their script by painting herself into their “red lines”, they adored her. Now she will be Theresa the betrayer.

She has to be, for otherwise the betrayers of Britain would be the Brexiters themselves. Human beings are, by and large, reluctant to admit error and politicians struggle more than most of us. Confession of fault comes even more grudgingly when the mistake is as epic as Brexit. If you have founded a world view on a folly, if you have staked an entire career on the idea that quitting the European Union is a bright idea, then you would have to be exceptionally honest with yourself to confess that it has been a catastrophic mistake. The Brexiters are not capable of being honest with themselves – or anyone else. Since their self-conceit will not allow them to concede that the fault is in Brexit itself and the people who promoted it, blame must therefore be assigned elsewhere. There was a dream Brexit to be had – this will be their cry – if only it had not been chucked away in the chambers of Brussels. Had Mrs May been a smarter, tougher negotiator, Britain would now be looking at a sun-dappled future, rather than being asked to accept a dire deal that leaves virtually no one satisfied and nearly everyone unhappy.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...t-be-as-terrible-as-suez-it-will-be-far-worse

 

[monkeybarry]

Well a hard Brexit gives us the sovereignty I would like. To have full control over our courts(need proper judges to go along with that though) to decide who we do business with and on what terms.

I would back it over a short term financial hit for what I think would be a longer term up turn financially.

Also I seriously doubt the car firms would have left if we had left without a deal because the were to many jobs at risk in Europe but we never had a leaver in control of the negotiations, May has been a remainer and still is, but she got her shot at Prime minister and when she leaves in a years time she will have her pick of high paid directorships to choose from so she wont care.

Your problem is that you have still not been able to get into the mindset of the people that voted leave. Your not one of the real bigots who accuse us all of being racists but you still struggle like so many remain people to understand why people voted leave and the is more then finances and also some people are able to take a long term view to things.

This was not meant as a criticism of you, more an observation that you lot still cant understand where we are coming from. Because despite 2 years of non stop negative stories and headlines, the doom and gloom that will happen if we leave. The opinion polls if they are to be believed still have leave at what is a high 44% only 4% down on what remain got last time round.

Why do you think so many still want to leave even with what people are saying about the economy?
Should leave accept the results of a second referendum if the was one?
Has the Johnson brother who is a remainer not just resigned at this time for major publicity (must run in that family)

What strikes me from this is that we need another referendum with a CLEAR set of goals for Brexit.

IE, like the first referendum should have done.

I think a new one now, with the three options;
1. Go ahead
2. Postpone and revisit in 1(?) year where a clear mandate can be voted on
3. Remain and revisit in X (3?) years with clear options. If leave still wins, then let people decide which type of Brexit to aim for.

I know people talk about the "will of the people" etc. On that basis alone, it is right to scrutinize the will of the people and vote until it is very clear exactly what the people want.
Much like a manifesto has detail, there should be a vote on something of similar detail.

 

[scaramanga]

What strikes me from this is that we need another referendum with a CLEAR set of goals for Brexit.

IE, like the first referendum should have done.

I think a new one now, with the three options;
1. Go ahead
2. Postpone and revisit in 1(?) year where a clear mandate can be voted on
3. Remain and revisit in X (3?) years with clear options. If leave still wins, then let people decide which type of Brexit to aim for.

I know people talk about the "will of the people" etc. On that basis alone, it is right to scrutinize the will of the people and vote until it is very clear exactly what the people want.
Much like a manifesto has detail, there should be a vote on something of similar detail.

If you have a new referendum every 5 minutes, you'll get a new answer every 5 minutes.

In the same way that sitting governments always poll low, so will a Brexit in progress.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Not sure why we need another vote because we are not leaving the EU. Which is exactly what I have been saying on here for a long long time.

We might "leave" the EU, but we still be bound by their rules in all areas of life and we will still pay in, I suspect we might get some extra controls on immigration. Which is what Cameron was meant to get years ago, waste of a few years but it has kept us entertained haha.

Anyway on a far more important point, lets talk money and how we the good members of GG can try and come out ahead. Whats the angle? put some money on the pound expecting it to go up when traitor May signs a deal in the next couple of weeks.

How you guys going to play it?

I was reading Richey Edwards today. One thing he was completely despondent about was how revolutions will never happen, they will always be myths, because human nature is so corrupt, that people with power can never be gotten rid of.

Brexit is another futile attempt by the people to get rid of the powerful who brick all over them. I kind of hoped it would be a second Reformation, but it's turned into a second Peasants' War

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Politics is often a case not of how you play the game, but how you place the blame. No one does this more assiduously and mendaciously than the Brexiters. Their game is approaching its climax and we can smell their fear that it is going to end very badly. This is why their fiercest energies are now directed to diverting culpability on to anyone’s shoulders but their own.

The person they have allotted to play the principal spacegoat is Theresa May. The prime minister will not be alone on their bogus charge list. They will finger others who supposedly sabotaged a beautiful idea, a cast that will include quisling civil servants, the treacherous Treasury, recalcitrant Remoaners, meddling judges and bullies in Brussels. They will all have roles in the self-exculpating blame game the Brexiters plan to play, but it is the prime minister who is being assigned the part of chief villain. Once, when she was foolishly following their script by painting herself into their “red lines”, they adored her. Now she will be Theresa the betrayer.

She has to be, for otherwise the betrayers of Britain would be the Brexiters themselves. Human beings are, by and large, reluctant to admit error and politicians struggle more than most of us. Confession of fault comes even more grudgingly when the mistake is as epic as Brexit. If you have founded a world view on a folly, if you have staked an entire career on the idea that quitting the European Union is a bright idea, then you would have to be exceptionally honest with yourself to confess that it has been a catastrophic mistake. The Brexiters are not capable of being honest with themselves – or anyone else. Since their self-conceit will not allow them to concede that the fault is in Brexit itself and the people who promoted it, blame must therefore be assigned elsewhere. There was a dream Brexit to be had – this will be their cry – if only it had not been chucked away in the chambers of Brussels. Had Mrs May been a smarter, tougher negotiator, Britain would now be looking at a sun-dappled future, rather than being asked to accept a dire deal that leaves virtually no one satisfied and nearly everyone unhappy.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...t-be-as-terrible-as-suez-it-will-be-far-worse

Did not even have to get to the bottom to know it was from the Guardian. As partisan if not more so then the mail and fox news. Nice gardening section mind.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I was reading Richey Edwards today. One thing he was completely despondent about was how revolutions will never happen, they will always be myths, because human nature is so corrupt, that people with power can never be gotten rid of.

Brexit is another futile attempt by the people to get rid of the powerful who brick all over them. I kind of hoped it would be a second Reformation, but it's turned into a second Peasants' War

I know for a cast iron fact that civil servants have been sabotaging the process, but if I wrote on here everything I would possibly get my sister in charge and ruin our relationship.

Undoubtedly brexit was not as well planned as it could have been but when it comes out in 20 years time in people's memoirs what the civil servants got up to you will be appalled.

People like Cameron, Blair and Juncker won that was obvious a year ago. The only revolutions that win are bloody ones.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I know for a cast iron fact that civil servants have been sabotaging the process, but if I wrote on here everything I would possibly get my sister in charge and ruin our relationship.

Undoubtedly brexit was not as well planned as it could have been but when it comes out in 20 years time in people's memoirs what the civil servants got up to you will be appalled.

People like Cameron, Blair and Juncker won that was obvious a year ago. The only revolutions that win are bloody ones.

Can leaving a customs trade union be considered a revolution?

Brexit could have been awesome, if only it had been carried out better?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Can leaving a customs trade union be considered a revolution?

Brexit could have been awesome, if only it had been carried out better?

Absolutely. We could have introduced all kinds of things to make peoples' lives better, without the constraint of being sued by big business, whose interests the EU primarily exists to protect. We could have been the first 1st world country to move to post-capitalism.