Politics, politics, politics

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Italy aer a founding memeber of the EU and they not only signed up but also helped create the rules, all governments are bound by decisions and treaties made by those before them, also this:
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...aly-face-off-over-populist-governments-budget
Italy was allocated €44.7bn between 2014 and 2020 as part of the EU’s stability and growth pact to support the competitiveness of its small and medium businesses, on the proviso that it lived up to fiscal commitments designed to avoid a repeat of the 2007 financial crash.

I have already recognised that there are rules, and to be part of the club is to abide by them - Im simply saying there is an over lap there between the rules and national politics I find very unsettling.

Regardless of whether or not a country signed up - they elected officials to enact policies they voted for, and then got told they couldnt by the EU.

 

[r-u-s-x]

I have already recognised that there are rules, and to be part of the club is to abide by them - Im simply saying there is an over lap there between the rules and national politics I find very unsettling.

Regardless of whether or not a country signed up - they elected officials to enact policies they voted for, and then got told they couldnt by the EU.

I made the distinction that they were a key part of creating the rules, they were not imposed from above, even more recently they agreed to fiscal commitments to get the €45bn are they going to effectively "default" on these and expect no response?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Italy aer a founding memeber of the EU and they not only signed up but also helped create the rules, all governments are bound by decisions and treaties made by those before them, also this:
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...aly-face-off-over-populist-governments-budget
Italy was allocated €44.7bn between 2014 and 2020 as part of the EU’s stability and growth pact to support the competitiveness of its small and medium businesses, on the proviso that it lived up to fiscal commitments designed to avoid a repeat of the 2007 financial crash.

Yet the country is trapped in poverty and high unemployment, because it can't devalue its currency or implement more Keynesian economics

 

[Gutter Boy]

they do not have the power to bar him - are you imposing the countries actions on the EU? IT was the Italian president who refused him.

But under whose instruction?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I made the distinction that they were a key part of creating the rules, they were not imposed from above, even more recently they agreed to fiscal commitments to get the €45bn are they going to effectively "default" on these and expect no response?

I dont really see the relevance of who created the rules, it will have been another government in another time.

My issue is more with the over arching organisation dictating to a nation how it can operate.

And yes, I have already recognised they signed up and so must adhere.

Im not saying its a clear cut thing - simply that it sits with great unease with me that a nation essentially lacks the ability to govern itself because the EU says so.

 

[monkeybarry]

It would be poetic justice if none of the leave voters lived to see Brexit happen, I suppose.

Sounds like ample time for a new referendum

 

[r-u-s-x]

Yet the country is trapped in poverty and high unemployment, because it can't devalue its currency or implement more Keynesian economics

Swings and roundabouts, hype inflation and high borrowing costs have down sides too.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Defence collaboration is a completely different issue from budget governance, surely.

It is, but that's how 'Permanent Cooperation' starts and eventually it melds into Budgetary things if there is an obligation to put money into a central pot towards a centralised army. Always remember the end goal with these things

 

[SpurMeUp]

On 1), to quote the FT:


When you land at Geneva Airport with the intention of driving onwards, you have a choice. You can pass through Swiss immigration and head straight for the car hire desks. Alternatively, you can go up an escalator, along a corridor and cross into the French sector where the same multinational car hire companies will offer you a different deal. Swiss regulations insist that hire cars have winter tyres fitted between the autumn and spring and they will also have a “vignette”, paying the annual SFR 40 ($40) road tax allowing the car to drive on Switzerland’s motorways. Cars hired from the French side have neither and often differ in specifications, but are generally much cheaper. From the same rental company, it is currently possible to hire a family car for the February half-term holiday for roughly half the price if you are willing to pick it up and return it to the French sector of the airport. Even though car hire is a competitive business with essentially the same product on offer, the national border separates markets and allows price variations far in excess of the product quality differences on offer. It is bad news for Switzerland, where consumers have to pay more even though the regulatory differences are minimal.

Border frictions have separated markets either side of the border to the detriment of consumers If you choose to save the money, and accept you cannot drive on Swiss motorways without a further charge, you will soon notice other ways in which borders matter. As you come to the end of the airport approach road and hang a right, aiming to drive through Geneva city centre and then back into France, you are immediately stopped by heavy border infrastructure. Three beige buildings with French and Swiss customs confront you, along with offices for both tax authorities. Europeans, accustomed to crossing other internal land borders within the EU, find this quite odd. Switzerland is part of the EU’s Schengen area, so there are no passport checks required for entry. For food and almost all tradeable industrial and agricultural goods, Switzerland’s regulations are also fully aligned with those of the EU. Both sides accept the others’ regulations. In reality, the Swiss copy and paste Brussels regulations into their domestic laws, allowing the landlocked state effectively to be a member of the EU single market for goods. Border infrastructure and customs declarations are necessary, however, because Switzerland is not part of the EU’s customs union or value added tax regime, which are separate from the single market. This difference requires both sides to build and staff a hard border with sometimes significant delays.

The French worry that someone might, for example, buy a frighteningly expensive Swiss watch, receive a Swiss tax refund since the watch is for export, and then not declare it for French VAT. The Swiss rigorously check that people have not spent more than €300 each on goods from France, depriving its exchequer of sales taxes. For trading companies, each load requires a customs declaration, multiple forms and stamps by the tax authorities to ensure that the formalities are closed on each side before goods cross the tax border. Within the Union none of this applies because complete regulatory alignment is married to an EU VAT regime, all within the customs union. This VAT system has its problems, but ensures that goods can flow across borders with no formalities. The Swiss-French border is efficient. There are no applicable tariffs. Regulations for goods are fully aligned. There is a common travel area between the two countries without the need for passport checks. But the border requires hard infrastructure because Switzerland is not in the EU VAT regime nor its customs union. Border frictions have separated markets either side of the border to the detriment of consumers.

On 2), probably not. People's Vote is continuity remain. Various Leavers suggested, pre-2016, that further referendums would be required to establish the terms on which we'd leave. They all went quiet on that after their victory, and defined their own versions of what they believed the vote meant as the WOTP.

Brexit was the defeat of complex truth in the face of simple lies. Maybe "lies" is too strong, misrepresentation is probably fairer.

@glorygloryeze if the above is correct, it shows that Switzerland doesn't get much from being out of the EU's tax regiem. They still have free movement of people, and just copy and paste the EUs laws into their own to allow them to trade freely on some goods. So they don't get out of free movement, they don't get sovrignity on laws that involve trade (but can't participate in making these laws). Things cost Swiss people more becuase there isn't completely free compeition, and there are the hassels of border checks. Does the Swiss model sound benificial to the UK? This is the complex truth. Not the misrepresentation that some peddle to get votes. Who are those that spin these mistruths? Generally, a private school educated elite, who want to see a victorian gentry and the rest of the population as surfs and trades people.

It's not a vision I think most people who voted Leave share?

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

Nah. Lies.

 

[SpurMeUp]

A United States of Europe is the ultimate vision/goal. It can only come about by One-Size-Fits all Political and Economic policies which are doomed to failure if self-determination/democracy in the constituent countries are still held dear. We need to get out before the end game of the riots when the diverse spread of the populations of Europe realise they are under a command-and-control quasi-dictatorship that means their votes in national elections are meaningless..

This is a myth pepetuated by rich people who want to manipulate the UK to bring about a Victorian-like UK. Fundamentally, Europe has distinct languages and cultures. It could never be a unified country! What a joke! Why would we ever accept it? Why would a Dutch person ever accept it? It is pure and utter delusion. It is not something people want, nor would it ever happen. This is a myth to spread fear in people, and garner support for the UK elite to gain more power.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

Jess Phillips is about my favourite MP at the moment. I'd love it if she brought down Bercow.

I was thinking of a slightly different story - as you'd expect, I'm keen to see Bercow stay until March, at least.

 

[monkeybarry]

The leaders of the Establishment People's Vote such as Chuka Umunna, Anna Soubrey and Vince Cable stated on mainstream TV that over 700,000 British people were demonstrating for the right to a second referendum.. They're lying as they had no way of knowing how many people had turned up, and also were not being totally honest with regards to the Demo's demographics... I know people who went to the march and they were proud of the fact that many Europeans had joined them!

And therein lies the issue with a certain demographic.....
To be British is to contribute to Britain.
Not the colour of your passport.

I have a simple question for you, why is the nationality of the protestor important to you?

 

[r-u-s-x]

But under whose instruction?

you're right its probably best to assume the EU instructed him.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

And therein lies the issue with a certain demographic.....
To be British is to contribute to Britain.
Not the colour of your passport.

I have a simple question for you, why is the nationality of the protestor important to you?

To be fair, the vast majority of people on the march were Europeans. I'm one myself. So is almost everybody on this thread.

 

[Gutter Boy]

This is a myth pepetuated by rich people who want to manipulate the UK to bring about a Victorian-like UK. Fundamentally, Europe has distinct languages and cultures. It could never be a unified country! What a joke! Why would we ever accept it? Why would a Dutch person ever accept it? It is pure and utter delusion. It is not something people want, nor would it ever happen. This is a myth to spread fear in people, and garner support for the UK elite to gain more power.

How would you define a country?

- Monopoly on the legitimate use of force
- Control of its borders
- Control of its tax and spending
- Primacy of its laws

None of that applies in the EU

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

The definition is not the thing; the menu is not the meal, the territory is not the map. All definitions can be countered with clever counter-examples. No succinct definition can take too much weight. There are clearly lots and lots of ways for a country to be a country.

 

[Gutter Boy]

To be fair, the vast majority of people on the march were Europeans. I'm one myself. So is almost everybody on this thread.

European has always been a strange concept. It obviously evolved from Christendom, and is used to mark distinction from the other two classical continents - Asia and Africa. I guess the problem is that Europeans colonised the 3 new world continents and more, so inter-continental ancestral ties are typically stronger than intra-continental geographic ones. Most people would bond with a Kiwi in Holland, in a way they wouldn't with a Dutch person in New Zealand, be that due to language or culture.

Actually the only place I've ever particularly felt European was in China. And that was simply because nearly all the Chinese were about a foot shorter, while the Europeans were at eye-level. There was a little bit of 'land of the giants' bonding there

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

European has always been a strange concept. It obviously evolved from Christendom, and is used to mark distinction from the other two classical continents - Asia and Africa. I guess the problem is that Europeans colonised the 3 new world continents and more, so inter-continental ancestral ties are typically stronger than cross-continental geographic ones. Most people would bond with a Kiwi in Holland, in a way they wouldn't with a Dutch person in New Zealand, be that due to language or culture.

Actually the only place I've ever particularly felt European was in China. And that was simply because nearly all the Chinese were about a foot shorter, while the Europeans were at eye-level. There was a little bit of 'land of the giants' bonding there

I'm not sure about the intercontinental ties. New Zealand is peculiarly British - you just have to put your watch back by 25 years - but I'd definitely feel that I had more in common with a Dutch person in the same profession if I was anywhere in the States, than with the Yank in Holland.

 

[glorygloryeze]

This is a myth pepetuated by rich people who want to manipulate the UK to bring about a Victorian-like UK. Fundamentally, Europe has distinct languages and cultures. It could never be a unified country! What a joke! Why would we ever accept it? Why would a Dutch person ever accept it? It is pure and utter delusion. It is not something people want, nor would it ever happen. This is a myth to spread fear in people, and garner support for the UK elite to gain more power.

I agree A United States of Europe is indeed not workable; doesn't mean that the EU bigwigs don't think that way though and they don't even try to hide it these days...