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Politics, politics, politics

Grays_1890 said:
Go anywhere in the world and there are takes of other cultures food, I don't think i have been to a street food market in the world where the food hasnt taken a twist from the original.

I doubt BrickLane Curries are anywhere near the same as they are in India, infact I know they are not.
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Because of the filter on this forum, I initially read that as "Sh1tLane Curries" -- I thought, "I don't want to eat there."
 
scaramanga said:
£5K per prisoner is £5K better than £0 (I'm really good at maths).

The rehabilitation costs must save a lot of ongoing cost after and at the end of the incarceration. Those services won't be free to the taxpayer either and I assume are not included in the £35K.
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There is an argument for that combined with education and mental health programmes to help prepare offenders for societal reintegration.
The 5k figure is rather crude, it should be used as a wider reduced cost, reduced reoffending rate costs less, quicker into employment reduces cost of other support areas etc.
Although most of these support areas will still need to exist, it's the reduced reoffending rate that is key.

None of the above would work in private prisons. Private business thinks in terms of profit. Govt thinks in terms of medium and long run cost reductions. IE immediacy Vs patience.

With Brexit looming and a reduction in EU workers in the workforce, having less people locked up is better for the workforce.
Societal attitudes to offenders need a huge change first. It's almost impossible to get a job with a criminal record.

Before any of the above, the drug problem in prison needs fixing. Monkey dust and Spice is destroying many lives.
Prison is good business for the right people
 
monkeybarry said:
None of the above would work in private prisons. Private business thinks in terms of profit. Govt thinks in terms of medium and long run cost reductions. IE immediacy Vs patience.
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I thoroughly disagree with that statement - if the incentives are properly crafted then there's no reason why the desired solution can't be the most profitable one too.

Although rehabilitation is clearly better for society than incarceration, we do have to account for those who cannot be rehabilitated. At some point, the need to protect the public from those who simply will not give up on breaking the law needs to take over. From there, we have to ensure that the net cost of keeping those criminals away from the public is as low as possible.
 
Why not put the 5k in to a trust fund with more incentives for better quality work and behaviour.

That they can only accessed when they get out.

Surely that would have better outcomes in terms of teaching and rehabilitation
 
scaramanga said:
I thoroughly disagree with that statement - if the incentives are properly crafted then there's no reason why the desired solution can't be the most profitable one too.

Although rehabilitation is clearly better for society than incarceration, we do have to account for those who cannot be rehabilitated. At some point, the need to protect the public from those who simply will not give up on breaking the law needs to take over. From there, we have to ensure that the net cost of keeping those criminals away from the public is as low as possible.
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You should be looking to make cost reductions, not profit. It is a wide system Which needs understanding of costs and practices across the system to realise any positive change in finances (profit or cost reduction). Private companies are not set up to do that, they are set up to make profit and deliver service in line with making short term profits (that is economics 101). Govt departments have longevity and focus, integrated working and a focus on the best use of public money. Private companies do not. Private companies also have a get out clause (fold) if things go wrong. They are ultimately unaccountable.

That is why we have a Parole system. Public protection is at the heart of the justice system.
There will always be an element that are forever incarcerated and some that are career criminals.
But creating a platform to move away from those routes is important, so it becomes a choice rather than "better than working".
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
You're putting yourself to the libertarian right of the Tories now. No-one seriously argues that the minimum wage hasn't worked. No-one serious, anyway.
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I should hope so - economically they're a bunch of fudging socialists nowadays. What self-respecting conservative would apply a luxury car tax?

As an employer who bears the cost of the minimum wage, I can tell you that it absolutely does not work and it's a very heavy brake on employment. Since the recent rapid increases on minimum wage, we've shut one factory (at the cost of around 60 jobs) and invested in plant to remove another 10-15 jobs at other sites. These are not decisions that we would have taken had minimum wages increased with inflation as it has for the rest of our employees.
 
monkeybarry said:
You should be looking to make cost reductions, not profit. It is a wide system Which needs understanding of costs and practices across the system to realise any positive change in finances (profit or cost reduction). Private companies are not set up to do that, they are set up to make profit and deliver service in line with making short term profits (that is economics 101). Govt departments have longevity and focus, integrated working and a focus on the best use of public money. Private companies do not. Private companies also have a get out clause (fold) if things go wrong. They are ultimately unaccountable.

That is why we have a Parole system. Public protection is at the heart of the justice system.
There will always be an element that are forever incarcerated and some that are career criminals.
But creating a platform to move away from those routes is important, so it becomes a choice rather than "better than working".
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So why not base the profits around the success of the parole of those prisoners?
 
scaramanga said:
I should hope so - economically they're a bunch of fudging socialists nowadays. What self-respecting conservative would apply a luxury car tax?

As an employer who bears the cost of the minimum wage, I can tell you that it absolutely does not work and it's a very heavy brake on employment. Since the recent rapid increases on minimum wage, we've shut one factory (at the cost of around 60 jobs) and invested in plant to remove another 10-15 jobs at other sites. These are not decisions that we would have taken had minimum wages increased with inflation as it has for the rest of our employees.
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The automation and the factor closure decisions must have been very finely balanced, then. Coin-toss stuff, if a 33p per hour increase tipped the board in favour of job losses.
 
ShipOfGoldblum said:
Um. That's precisely the stuff that Whitehall tends to be bad at: it operates in siloed programmes and it's operationally bound by very short funding cycles, which has all manner of counter-intuitive consequences for investment decisions.
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We are moderately restricted by political whim, but long term planning and joined up working is always present.
Sometimes it is jeopardised by politics, that's the consequence of voting.

The public perception of Civil SetvSer performance Vs reality is very very different.
 
scaramanga said:
I should hope so - economically they're a bunch of fudging socialists nowadays. What self-respecting conservative would apply a luxury car tax?

As an employer who bears the cost of the minimum wage, I can tell you that it absolutely does not work and it's a very heavy brake on employment. Since the recent rapid increases on minimum wage, we've shut one factory (at the cost of around 60 jobs) and invested in plant to remove another 10-15 jobs at other sites. These are not decisions that we would have taken had minimum wages increased with inflation as it has for the rest of our employees.
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As my recently departed old man used to say, "finding employment isn't hard. I could find all the work for a lifetime....the hard part is getting paid a decent wage to do it." Another inner contradiction of capitalism, no business wants to pay a decent wage for it's workforce, unless forced to (an historical reality) but they all want workers from other businesses to have the purchasing power to buy their products. The glib response is well, we will go off shore then. What nationalists, what patriots!
 
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ShipOfGoldblum said:
The automation and the factor closure decisions must have been very finely balanced, then. Coin-toss stuff, if a 33p per hour increase tipped the board in favour of job losses.
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It's a year on year increase and it has to be replicated across the board in our wage structure, otherwise there's no incentive to train and improve.

It represents roughly £3.5k a week in extra cost over the last 10 years just for our lowest paid staff. Over the whole of the workforce in that factory I'd guess at somewhere from £5-10k per week in costs. I work in a low margin industry (where much of the minimum wage labour is centred) and we can't accept those increases - especially not when the quality of staff we get for that are getting worse.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
As my recently departed old man used to say, "finding employment isn't hard. I could find all the work for a lifetime....the hard part is getting paid a decent wage to do it." Another inner contradiction of capitalism, no business wants to pay a decent wage for it's workforce, unless forced to (an historical reality) but they all want workers from other businesses to have the purchasing power to buy their products. The glib response is well, we will go off shore then. What nationalists, what patriots!
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Sounds like the employment market didn't think much of your father's skills.

I'm proud to say I'm neither a nationalist nor a patriot. Borders are just artificial lines created by people before global trade and travel existed. I have far more in common with people from Paris or New York than I do people from Manchester or Saudi Sportswashing Machine.
 
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