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Politics, politics, politics

milo said:
Isn't adequate food and seeing the benefits in 50 years enough for you?
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Apparently pre WW1 Londoners go to food after a few bevies was 'a German'. Sausage, sauerkraut served by a girl in lederhosen. In 6 months we'll be back to spam and jellied eels!
 
I actually think the potential food and meds crisis is overblown - we will find ways to ensure supply short term and of course long term. The point is, Brexit makes things harder, and more costly, for no return. For what? For a concept - Sovereignty - that is particularly hard to define.

European nations are the most culturally distinct. Why have people become obsessed by some random notion called 'sovereignty'? Its a legal entity that doesn't translate well into a political one. You might like this https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bcglx0 its a bit more light hearted.
 
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Gutter Boy said:
To be honest, I don't think I've ever seen a European nurse in a hospital. All the ones I've noticed have usually been something like Afrikaans

Perhaps it's like the great EU student myth - i.e that there actually were many European students, when in fact international students have long all been Chinese, Malaysians and Americans
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I've known plenty of Portuguese, Spanish and Italian nurses but really our first hand experience is immaterial.

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https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7783
 
SpurMeUp said:
I actually think the potential food and meds crisis is overblown - we will find ways to ensure supply short term and of course long term. The point is, Brexit makes things harder, and more costly, for no return. For what? For a concept - Sovereignty - that is particularly hard to define.

European nations are the most culturally distinct. Why have people become obsessed by some random notion called 'sovereignty'? Its a legal entity that doesn't translate well into a political one. You might like this https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0bcglx0 its a bit more light hearted.
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What is being talked about is a worse case scenario but it is difficult to imagine it not resulting in an increase in time at UK borders. Even marginal increases have big impact on JIT supply. We do not have the warehouses to stockpile and expecting business to sink money into holding stock will impact cashflow and make British business less efficient.

I don't see how we have increased our sovereignty by becoming a rule taker of either the EU or US without any say in them. Whatever anyone says, that is our future outside the EU.
 
DTA said:
I have said this before bur What's best for the union differs if the UK is in the union or if the UK is out of the union.

If the UK is in the union. They also have a responsibilty to us. If we are out. They don't.

The small concessions will be... Um... small. Nothing like ending freedom of movement etc. Maybe easing some of our concerns and that of other countries with similar concerns.
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Yes - and how do we get back in?

If - as it is coming to seem - its a political decision, why assume a forgive and forget option?

The union, with regard to us, will want more - they will want us all in, IMO - not the arms length outsider we have always been.

They would be foolish not to, and their negotiating manner so far suggests exactly what Im saying.



And - lets flesh this out - small concessions, what have you got?

You have this idea that we can go for a second referendum, and that the EU can offer us a pretty deal to swing it your way - what is it?

As we both know FOM wont be on the table, what do you suppose they can do to make us vote that way?


I get told Im wishful thinking, just saying what I want as if it will happen - what do you suppose this looks like?
 
Gutter Boy said:
So not many then. Excluding Irish (who would be here anyway by virtue of the common travel area), that's not enough to fill old WHL. 4% of the workforce
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You think we can cope with a 4% fall in NHS staff? you probably do, waste etc. - its a reduction 45% of foreign NHS staff (35% excluding Ireland)
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Yes - and how do we get back in?

If - as it is coming to seem - its a political decision, why assume a forgive and forget option?

The union, with regard to us, will want more - they will want us all in, IMO - not the arms length outsider we have always been.

They would be foolish not to, and their negotiating manner so far suggests exactly what Im saying.



And - lets flesh this out - small concessions, what have you got?

You have this idea that we can go for a second referendum, and that the EU can offer us a pretty deal to swing it your way - what is it?

As we both know FOM wont be on the table, what do you suppose they can do to make us vote that way?


I get told Im wishful thinking, just saying what I want as if it will happen - what do you suppose this looks like?
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First what I am saying is based on us not leaving. As in we don't leave and our government is competent enough (lol) to use the carrot of a second referendum for the EU to then grant us some small consessions.

If we leave and then try to join again, say 5 years down the line you are right the EU will not give us it on our same terms... It will be all in or they will reject our membership.

What are the small consessions? Well as the main concern is freedom of movement. Maybe a optional yearlyCap on immigration (which we will want to exceed, because wage inflation is actually a fear of the British not so eu's)
 
r-u-s-x said:
Except we are not discussing the fact we have stopped recruiting them but the fact less are choosing to come.
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Isn't that because the immigration bill hasn't come out yet, so there's uncertainty over the terms they'd be able to come in on?

GBBO also allows us to recruit more freely from RoW with no discrimination
 
DTA said:
First what I am saying is based on us not leaving. As in we don't leave and our government is competent enough (lol) to use the carrot of a second referendum for the EU to then grant us some small consessions.

If we leave and then try to join again, say 5 years down the line you are right the EU will not give us it on our same terms... It will be all in or they will reject our membership.

What are the small consessions? Well as the main concern is freedom of movement. Maybe a optional yearlyCap on immigration (which we will want to exceed, because wage inflation is actually a fear of the British not so eu's)
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Im not talking about 5 years later (though I agree, no special terms whatsoever then), Im talking about now.

And thats grey area. And comes back to the talk yesterday - can we just unilaterally cancel A50 or not?

The concensus seemed to be it was a political decision, rather than legal, and so would likely mean the EU having to consent - which leads right back to what Ive been talking about the whole time. Why would they just consent to a forgive and forget cancellation, rather than take the opportunity to bring us closer into the fold?

As to controlling immigration - already declined with Cameron. Not even politely, I think they are still laughing at him now. One of the major blocks on deals going forward (assuming Brexit) is FOM - which they want to insist upon.

Do really think its anything more than wishful thinking they will suddenly allow us to put caps/limits etc on it?

(while keeping our Veto, rebate, currency...)



r-u-s-x said:
Except we are not discussing the fact we have stopped recruiting them but the fact less are choosing to come.
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Is this not the same as the downturn in Investment? IE - current turbulence/uncertainty is keeping people away until a more settled/predictable situation unfolds?

Were we to leave the EU, and control our own immigration - offering Visa's to healthcare professionals - why wouldnt they come back?

This seems, to me at least, to be one of those red herring things. Clearly a short term thing, rather than long term predictor.
 
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