Politics, politics, politics

[Gutter Boy]

So not likely to happen unless we embrace a Corbyn post-communist reality. If you are not a communist are there any problems with the status quo?

You are basically cutting yourself off from all innovation though. Corbyn's thoughts on what to do with flexibility on taxation are very different from the ERG's, but both need freedom from the EU's restrictions to be able to deliver their visions. The EU is one unturnable course. Brexit is the possibility, agility and accountability of all other courses

 

[Parklaner81]

It is very simple, is this something that is important for the UK? Will being able to change VAT rates of Tampons change lives or have much impact? Can the UK set its own taxes, yes the important ones. Gutterboy and maybe you are trying to suggest we don't have control of our taxes. The core reality is the EU doesn't really hold us back with own taxation. We regularly change VAT, capital gains etc. If the EU did hold us back in any significant way you might point to something that matters and explain how this affects us negatively - that would be more interesting than personal attacks. Try to debate the issue and how they effect lives.

What an utterly laughable post.

I can't speak for Gutterboy, but my involvement on this topic went no further than commenting upon a very specific point relating to VAT. One which GB was being attacked and mocked on by several posters, when it seemed to me that he was probably in the right. So once again, you're attempting to put words in peoples mouths and change the debate. As for personal attacks, I'm not aware I've made any, unless you're classifying my pointing out the above into this category?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Wouldn't a higher tax rate on luxury cars just hit the car industry? Meaning less research and development of cleaner technologies.

No - because you incentivise green cars with a bottom rate of VAT. Then if BMW and Mercedes don't play ball, you use state aid to re-establish Rover

 

[Baleforce]

No - because you incentivise green cars with a bottom rate of VAT. Then if BMW and Mercedes don't play ball, you use state aid to re-establish Rover

yes, because BMW and Mercedes drivers are going to buy a Montego instead

 

[Gutter Boy]

yes, because BMW and Mercedes drivers are going to buy a Montego instead

They can still buy BMWs and Mercedes. But there will be a 40% premium on the price, going straight into HMRC.

 

[Baleforce]

They can still buy BMWs and Mercedes. But there will be a 40% premium on the price, going straight into HMRC.

so why prop up Rover?

 

[r-u-s-x]

It's the very crux of the EU problem though. It illustrates how it ties us indefinitely into Reaganomics. Competition and state aid laws, including VAT arrangements, are there to stop us taxing and spending in ways other than Reaganomics

A higher tax on luxury cars would bring a massive bonus for public services. But the EU is there as an agent of the big capitalists

Can you see why a trading block would want to restrict targeting specific goods for higher VAT? In reality we could target countries main exports and have a trade war. We put VAT up on Luxury Cars / Germany put VAT up on Whisky - sort of negates the idea free movement of Goods.

 

[Gutter Boy]

so why prop up Rover?

If the multinationals won't provide alternatives that fit the spec we determine

 

[Gutter Boy]

Can you see why a trading block would want to restrict targeting specific goods for higher VAT? In reality we could target countries main exports and have a trade war. We put VAT up on Luxury Cars / Germany put VAT up on Whisky - sort of negates the idea free movement of Goods.

The stimulus is meant to bring production as close as possible to the point of consumption. It's to counter neo-liberalism

 

[Baleforce]

If the multinationals won't provide alternatives that fit the spec we determine

 

[SpurMeUp]

What an utterly laughable post.

I can't speak for Gutterboy, but my involvement on this topic went no further than commenting upon a very specific point relating to VAT. One which GB was being attacked and mocked on by several posters, when it seemed to me that he was probably in the right. So once again, you're attempting to put words in peoples mouths and change the debate. As for personal attacks, I'm not aware I've made any, unless you're classifying my pointing out the above into this category?

Out of curiosity what did you find so humorous?

Are your posts about defending GB and nothing to do with the merits of Brexit? I am interested in discussing one thing, will Brexit help the UK or not. I suspect your posts are also aimed at this - showing how Brexit is a good thing and the EU bad? Can you be open about that bias, if so maybe we can have a proper debate around how the EU does and does not effect our lives.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[milo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1022529303454642176

 

[DTA]

"Dude" you betray your attitude to this completely.

Why the necessity for winners and losers? Us vs them? Me vs you? Why so petty and childish?

Why not take a more mature view, realise there is much to be lost and gained on each side, and find a compromise that works best for all?

Im just pointing out facts. Established ones. This is something that Brexiteers seem oblivious to. This is the world that we live in and are governed by.

Everything else is is just unicorn dreams ... And not even in the Blade runner sense.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Im just pointing out facts. Established ones. This is something that Brexiteers seem oblivious to. This is the world that we live in and are governed by.

Everything else is is just unicorn dreams ... And not even in the Blade runner sense.

And again, that right there - is the problem.

Us/them/vs/patronising....

There is literally no need for it. Not from you, and especially not from the EU.

27 nations, joined together in an attempt to evolve and consolidate, dropping immediately to such a childish attitude?

Because? They worry that others will want to leave too - seems to be the confirmed response.

What does that tell you?

A) Perhaps the EU is nothing like as secure as the remain side of the argument would like everyone to think
B) They have no perspective at all. All but a handful of countries are dependent on the EU (just as suits them), why would they leave? And those that arent are full blooded members - in these respects the UK really is the odd one out/unique.

You would think, when talking about NATIONS on a GLOBAL scale, that a degree of maturity and pragmatism would be found. It amazes me that we are the ones being spoken about it degrading terms when the EU itself is acting like a spoiled and insecure child.

Now dont get me wrong, Im not going to tell you the UK has showered itself in glory. Our politics right now is frankly an embarrassment - but that is irrelevant.

There is no good reason why a compromise cannot be found that works for all. Instead we are being driven either to hard brexit (everyone fudges themselves) or being bullied into a Norway type deal where there are winners and losers.

Incidentally, if/when that Norway type deal happens - do you think itll be the end of it? Or do you think, when people realise they have even less power than before, they will kick off again? UKIP will have something to do. And will be bolstered by all the Brexiteers of other parties tinkled off at the result - it will get ugly and fast IMHO. Most likely while you will be gloating over your "I told you so".

 

[DTA]

And again, that right there - is the problem.

Us/them/vs/patronising....

There is literally no need for it. Not from you, and especially not from the EU.

27 nations, joined together in an attempt to evolve and consolidate, dropping immediately to such a childish attitude?

Because? They worry that others will want to leave too - seems to be the confirmed response.

What does that tell you?

A) Perhaps the EU is nothing like as secure as the remain side of the argument would like everyone to think
B) They have no perspective at all. All but a handful of countries are dependent on the EU (just as suits them), why would they leave? And those that arent are full blooded members - in these respects the UK really is the odd one out/unique.

You would think, when talking about NATIONS on a GLOBAL scale, that a degree of maturity and pragmatism would be found. It amazes me that we are the ones being spoken about it degrading terms when the EU itself is acting like a spoiled and insecure child.

Now dont get me wrong, Im not going to tell you the UK has showered itself in glory. Our politics right now is frankly an embarrassment - but that is irrelevant.

There is no good reason why a compromise cannot be found that works for all. Instead we are being driven either to hard brexit (everyone fudges themselves) or being bullied into a Norway type deal where there are winners and losers.

Incidentally, if/when that Norway type deal happens - do you think itll be the end of it? Or do you think, when people realise they have even less power than before, they will kick off again? UKIP will have something to do. And will be bolstered by all the Brexiteers of other parties tinkled off at the result - it will get ugly and fast IMHO. Most likely while you will be gloating over your "I told you so".

I don't get this? What is immature about trying to get the best deal for your side?

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

I don't get this? What is immature about trying to get the best deal for your side?

But they aren't "trying to get the deal". It's an organisation bounded by rules and treaties. There's some stuff where they can haggle, and some where they can't. Nayim and the ERG are demanding that they roll over on the stuff which is literally inconceivable for them.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I don't get this? What is immature about trying to get the best deal for your side?

"your side" = like I said - the problem is fundamental here.

Why the need for sides? Why not simple, pragmatic, discussion about what works best for all.

Why winners and losers? Why petty and spiteful? Why points scoring?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

But they aren't "trying to get the deal". It's an organisation bounded by rules and treaties. There's some stuff where they can haggle, and some where they can't. Nayim and the ERG are demanding that they roll over on the stuff which is literally inconceivable for them.

They have compromised before, is it really "inconceivable"?

Remember this?

If compromise really was inconceivable, why are there already so many options? Why isnt there just a one size fits all membership offer?

The fact is, even on some EU pillars, the EU has compromised plenty. They are choosing not too now.

With a state that is perfectly aligned, already holding existing business relationships, shipping channels etc with them.

Would it not make sense to try and maintain that trading arrangement? Still stand to take our money? Have our custom support EU businesses?

Would it not make sense - even - to try and get some sort of fee out of us for the privilege, to help plug the enormous gap in the budget we will leave? (I said right from the start, Free trade + buy the financial passport, for example, could be agreeable)

For the sake of compromising on political sway over us, and free movement of people - much like the EU just agreed with Canada.

There is the possibility for agreement, but only if both sides are willing to be grown up about it.

As I said, Im well aware our government are a shambles - but it is conveniently glossed over just how badly the EU have approached this as well.

 

[SpurMeUp]

And again, that right there - is the problem.

Us/them/vs/patronising....

There is literally no need for it. Not from you, and especially not from the EU.

27 nations, joined together in an attempt to evolve and consolidate, dropping immediately to such a childish attitude?

Because? They worry that others will want to leave too - seems to be the confirmed response.

What does that tell you?

A) Perhaps the EU is nothing like as secure as the remain side of the argument would like everyone to think
B) They have no perspective at all. All but a handful of countries are dependent on the EU (just as suits them), why would they leave? And those that arent are full blooded members - in these respects the UK really is the odd one out/unique.

You would think, when talking about NATIONS on a GLOBAL scale, that a degree of maturity and pragmatism would be found. It amazes me that we are the ones being spoken about it degrading terms when the EU itself is acting like a spoiled and insecure child.

Now dont get me wrong, Im not going to tell you the UK has showered itself in glory. Our politics right now is frankly an embarrassment - but that is irrelevant.

There is no good reason why a compromise cannot be found that works for all. Instead we are being driven either to hard brexit (everyone fudges themselves) or being bullied into a Norway type deal where there are winners and losers.

Incidentally, if/when that Norway type deal happens - do you think itll be the end of it? Or do you think, when people realise they have even less power than before, they will kick off again? UKIP will have something to do. And will be bolstered by all the Brexiteers of other parties tinkled off at the result - it will get ugly and fast IMHO. Most likely while you will be gloating over your "I told you so".

Taking about naivety, could you explain how the EU could give a former member better terms than a current one?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[r-u-s-x]

This is their opinion :
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...same-terms-says-french-minister-politics-live

"Indivisibility of the four freedoms, the integrity of the single market, these are key points. This is our main asset. We are not going to negotiate on that. The United Kingdom has know that from the outset."

This is their opinion on the Exit fee

"It is quite right that there is agreement on nothing until we have agreement on everything. But what is perfectly clear to the 27 EU member states and the European Parliament is that what has been agreed in December and March has been agreed for good."


"