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Politics, politics, politics

SpurMeUp said:
Polls are always limited - not least by it being hypothetical! “Brexit” - one term - is a complex, multilayered thing, yet it seems to create a binary in or out reaction in people. And if you’re in one camp the nuances of what might be delivered to you and the UK are not particularly important. They are overshadowed by the simple in or out mentality.

Maybe when there is more detail of the trade deal there will be more for us to weigh up and evaluate. We can see more or less what the UK will get at that point. Parliament thank goodness will get a vote - we’re not a dictatorship after all - and imo people should also get a vote. Simply because MPs may not know how to represent people’s views on the final deal.

For example if the deal includes retaining free movement of people for 5 years would Leavers be happy? Or I we’re still subject to ECJ rulings on our laws is that acceptable? Leavers resist any votes yet don’t know what it is they will get, like a mystery gift box [emoji23]


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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I'm not sure you can go down to that level of detail in a representative democracy. That's more direct democracy in the Swiss or Athenian form.

The Tories won the 2017 GE on their vision of Brexit (and Labour's manifesto was only a cigarette paper different on it). They implement it and then get judged on it in 2022. Then we can choose a more socialist Brexit or a more Atlantic Brexit.
 
So, it seems certain Tories have been making noises about scrapping the working time directive once we have left the EU.

Rags like The Sun report this as an over-time boom for workers. What those sh1t-qunts don't mention is that workers can opt out of the 48 hour working week if they so wish (except in certain jobs eg delivery drivers of vehicles over 3.5 tonnes).

What they also don't mention is that the working time directive enshrines in law a worker's right to 20 days paid holiday each year, a rest period for every 6 hours of work and a day off after a week's work.

Workers can work more if they want (apart from restricted industries) but the point is, an EMPLOYEE cannot be FORCED to.

Still, not much of a vote winner to put "YOU'LL BE WORKING LONGER HOURS WITH LESS HOLIDAY" on the side of a bus.
 
Gutter Boy said:
I'm not sure you can go down to that level of detail in a representative democracy. That's more direct democracy in the Swiss or Athenian form.

The Tories won the 2017 GE on their vision of Brexit (and Labour's manifesto was only a cigarette paper different on it). They implement it and then get judged on it in 2022. Then we can choose a more socialist Brexit or a more Atlantic Brexit.
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When parliament get a vote it will be on the final deal with the EU. So if people also got a vote, they would not be voting on lots of options but on the Brexit deal itself.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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The real price of Brexit begins to emerge

FT research shows that the weekly hit to the British economy could be the same £350m that Leave campaigners promised to claw back


Overall, 14 different counterfactuals estimated by the FT and others give a range of a hit between 0.6 per cent of national income and 1.3 per cent, with an average of 0.9 per cent. With national income of £2tn in the year ending in the third quarter of 2017, it means the UK is likely to be producing £18bn less a year than would have been reasonable to expect and this is directly attributable to Britain’s decision to leave the EU. That is just short of £350m a week.

https://www.ft.com/content/e3b29230-db5f-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482
 
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SpurMeUp said:
The real price of Brexit begins to emerge

FT research shows that the weekly hit to the British economy could be the same £350m that Leave campaigners promised to claw back


Overall, 14 different counterfactuals estimated by the FT and others give a range of a hit between 0.6 per cent of national income and 1.3 per cent, with an average of 0.9 per cent. With national income of £2tn in the year ending in the third quarter of 2017, it means the UK is likely to be producing £18bn less a year than would have been reasonable to expect and this is directly attributable to Britain’s decision to leave the EU. That is just short of £350m a week.

https://www.ft.com/content/e3b29230-db5f-11e7-a039-c64b1c09b482
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I cant read the article as not a subscriber, but how do they determine what our economy will be like when they have literally no idea what sort of trading relationship we will have with the EU?

The short excerpt there seems to suggest its based on the economy as it is, which as we have already discussed is a somewhat flawed starting point.

And - if Im not mistaken, if the hit IS £350m a week, then arent we in a net/neutral position? Having been hit by the exact amount we would save?
 
@nayimfromthehalfwayline
  • Is the downturn in the economy temporary? What will occur for it to uplift? When economists are predicting that being out of the customs union will cause problems for UK trade.
  • The data is based on where the UK would have been without the Brexit vote. A range of measures are used with the average making figure leading to the £340m per week downgrade.
  • The £350 figure on the bus was widely ridiculed as being incorrect, so no it wouldn't leave us cost neutral.
 
  • I have no idea. And that is the point. The downturn is based not on the Brexit decision, per se, rather the lack of clarity as to what a post Brexit UK - EU deal looks like.
  • I fully expect as that deal becomes clearer for the economy to change. Be that for better or worse, I dont assume an upturn, only change when the uncertainty is removed. To reflect what the post Brexit deal looks like.
  • Good deal for us? For sure, an upturn. A bad deal for us? What do you think...?
  • The £350m figure was taken directly from your quote. That is all. Im well aware of its accuracy. Im also well aware of it being a convenient stick for remainers to beat with when it suits them.
 
This was all so unnecessary......the whole mess is so typically British its actually funny.
Brian Rix would have been proud.
 
StephenH said:
This was all so unnecessary......the whole mess is so typically British its actually funny.
Brian Rix would have been proud.
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Typically British in the same way as the Reformation and standing alone against Napoleon and Hitler? Pluckily standing against an overmighty expansionist force, because it's the right thing to do
 
Gutter Boy said:
Typically British in the same way as the Reformation and standing alone against Napoleon and Hitler? Pluckily standing against an overmighty expansionist force, because it's the right thing to do
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I hear you GB and I respect your point of view but I don't understand your attitude and never will. But I can more understand why we are in the mess we are when we have our conversations on here. I hope that at least someone is getting some solace from this balmy situation.
 
It may not be a popular opinion but GB is correct.
Let's not forget that it's not Britain that has waged wars of aggression against our European neighbours. Or invaded them.
It wasn't Britain that stirred up discontent in our neighbours colonies.
Nor firget that Britain that twice in 50 years fought with their "allies" France to defend their soil only for de Gaulle to shaft us and block our entry into the "common market".

We should face up to reality, the Europeans don't like the English.
They don't really like each much either truth be told, but there's just enough common ground to let them get by.
We don't have that.
 
glasgowspur said:
It may not be a popular opinion but GB is correct.
Let's not forget that it's not Britain that has waged wars of aggression against our European neighbours. Or invaded them.
It wasn't Britain that stirred up discontent in our neighbours colonies.
Nor firget that Britain that twice in 50 years fought with their "allies" France to defend their soil only for de Gaulle to shaft us and block our entry into the "common market".

We should face up to reality, the Europeans don't like the English.
They don't really like each much either truth be told, but there's just enough common ground to let them get by.
We don't have that.
Click to expand...

I look what we are like when it comes to Scotland!
 
AND is Brussels the current day parallel of the Death Star.

Bo Jo could play Luke Skywalker!

Who would be Darth Vader?
 
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