Politics, politics, politics

[SpurMeUp]

We are cursed to have such a disfunctional and incompetent government handling our biggest and most complex negotiations since the second world war. I am not sure that there is a single position that the Conservative Party can agree on, let alone one that is acceptable to the Tories and EU.

Even the most sorted government would find it hard to deliver, given the challenge they face. To be fair to May she's probably navigating a good a route as anyone might. What could she do differently? On one hand you have the EU who can't have the UK looking like out the EU is advantageous, so they are in no rush to address Brexit on our terms.

Then Brexit itself is nigh on impossible to deliver without downgrading the UKs trade position and our economy, at least short term.

Soft Brexit, a Norway-like setup, and we have less sovereignty than we had in the EU. It would be like being in the EU now but with less control. But the economy would be fine.

Which leads Boris and others to seek a harder Brexit, and I understand that. Why make a change if all you are doing is worsening your current setup? Be bold and go for a Singapore setup. Maybe it will work maybe it won't. The UK would lose jobs short term; longer term would an ultra free trade setup see the UK and London prosper, as Singapore has, or would we become the periphery, with banks, manufacturers moving into the EU for free market access? The answer is probably both. The UK might attract more finance services etc with tax breaks, but also lose out as companies who need EU access depart.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[monkeybarry]

Have our political class not just grown incapable because for 25 years they've outsourced any real power to the EU and big business? It's not a particularly attractive career for talent now you don't get power or money. Having to make some real decisions again that can change everything, should quickly sort the men from the boys.

You are also making the misconception that staying in the EU is the status quo. It's not - they are moving ever closer to the federal superstate. We've already diverged significantly in the past 6 months since our resistance to that fate stopped being an obstacle.

Being a politician should be about public service not money or power. Money and ego is the problem.

I don't actually agree re; the EU superstate notion, it's a lazy headline for euro sceptics to back up their position based on lazy soundbites from the likes of Juncker (money and power) that have little substance.

I'm firmly remain, but not for any love of the EU, but because I understand leaving is a huge project and we don't have the set up, the project managers or project management skills required to do it effectively enough.

 

[Parklaner81]

Would we or should we accept something if it's been mis-sold to us?

If the car you bought actually had 1.4 engine rather than the 2.0 the salesman told you about, would you just say "ah well, it's not what he said it was but I guess I'll just accept it"?

Are you a leave voter who has since changed your opinion?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Are you a leave voter who has since changed your opinion?

We will have a rerun of the last general election next because of corbyns student debt pledge and Mays elderly care tax.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Being a politician should be about public service not money or power. Money and ego is the problem.

I don't actually agree re; the EU superstate notion, it's a lazy headline for euro sceptics to back up their position based on lazy soundbites from the likes of Juncker (money and power) that have little substance.

I'm firmly remain, but not for any love of the EU, but because I understand leaving is a huge project and we don't have the set up, the project managers or project management skills required to do it effectively enough.

There was me thinking that Juncker was The President of The European Commission, and that the European Commission was one of the main institutions of the European Union.
I'll remember next time not to take what the President of one of the main institutions of the EU says seriously

 

[Gutter Boy]

There was me thinking that Juncker was The President of The European Commission, and that the European Commission.
I'll remember next time not to take what the President of one of the main institutions of the EU says seriously

With the EU's 5 unelected presidents, it's always difficult to remember which ageing grey Beneluxers in creased suits are the important ones and which are the jokes.

IIRC: Junker is the malevolent one, Tusk is Merkel's bitch, and Verhofstadt is the idiot.

 

[glorygloryeze]

With the EU's 5 unelected presidents, it's always difficult to remember which ageing grey Beneluxers in creased suits are the important ones and which are the jokes.

IIRC: Junker is the malevolent one, Tusk is Merkel's bitch, and Verhofstadt is the idiot.

In before "The 5 Presidents are elected, as we elect MEPs and they represent us at EU level" etc etc..

 

[Gutter Boy]

In before "The 5 Presidents are elected, as we elect MEPs and they represent us at EU level" etc etc..

I think it's a big part of the British disconnect with the EU project. We like to be able to directly and mercilessly remove our leaders, punish bad governments and try something different. The EU was fundamentally designed to be undemocratic, to prevent it wavering from its design. That doesn't sit well with the British psyche at all.

Everyone should remember Tony Benn's 5 questions to those in power:
What power have you got?
Where did you get it from?
In whose interests do you use it?
To whom are you accountable?
How do we get rid of you?

The EU project can't answer such existential scrutiny for those that believe in democracy over technocracy.

 

[MrTea]

I think it's a big part of the British disconnect with the EU project. We like to be able to directly and mercilessly remove our leaders, punish bad governments and try something different.

We've not elected half of our own Prime ministers in the last century....

 

[Gutter Boy]

We've not elected half of our own Prime ministers in the last century....

That's even better - we can clear out a whole government and its programme, not just a personality.

 

[monkeybarry]

There was me thinking that Juncker was The President of The European Commission, and that the European Commission was one of the main institutions of the European Union.
I'll remember next time not to take what the President of one of the main institutions of the EU says seriously

Take it as seriously as you would any statement from any politician.
Perhaps even less so due to his bizarre position - he needs to justify his existence as much as, if not more than, officials elected by constitutes/local version.

You wouldn't believe everything any UK politician says. (At least I hope not!)

 

[glorygloryeze]

Take it as seriously as you would any statement from any politician.
Perhaps even less so due to his bizarre position - he needs to justify his existence as much as, if not more than, officials elected by constitutes/local version.

You wouldn't believe everything any UK politician says. (At least I hope not!)

I agree; his position is indeed bizzare because he is a president of a budding Superstate that was not elected by any electorate across said Superstate. But then proceeds to 'justify' his position by stating the very goal of the EU - which is the said superstate.

It's like saying, don't take seriously anything that Theresa May says in her manifesto - the difference is i get to actually vote AGAINST her/vote her out if i do so

 

[monkeybarry]

I agree; his position is indeed bizzare because he is a president of a budding Superstate that was not elected by any electorate across said Superstate. But then proceeds to 'justify' his position by stating the very goal of the EU - which is the said superstate.

It's like saying, don't take seriously anything that Theresa May says in her manifesto - the difference is i get to actually vote AGAINST her/vote her out if i do so

No you don't.
You get to vote for a local representative to act and vote on your behalf in Parliament.
In a similar, albeit not identical, way you get (got) to vote for a MEP to represent you in the EU political system.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

No you don't.
You get to vote for a local representative to act and vote on your behalf in Parliament.
In a similar, albeit not identical, way you get (got) to vote for a MEP to represent you in the EU political system.

You know what he means.
You get to vote against a conservative MP, who is led by a conservative leader, who is there to represent, as leader, the conservative party who all (in the main) sign up to the manifesto of that party.

 

[scaramanga]

Do you think there is less appetite for economic Brexit now? Not the red herring Brexit we were sold about immigration and sovereignty, but the real one where we leave a free trade union?

Seems to be less fight back on here. Maybe with prices going up in the shops there is less bravado to cease our membership of the worlds largest trading block?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

I think you're confusing lack of appetite with boredom. People are just bored of talking about it

 

[scaramanga]

This is interesting and balanced on schedules at the WTO

https://tradebetablog.wordpress.com/2017/10/07/primer-2-tariff-quotas/amp/

Every day is a school day with Brexit.

That's one of the better articles I've read lately but it's still over-complicating things.

The answer is still "Don't charge tariffs"

 

[the dza]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...eresa-may-accepts-continuing-rule-of-eu-court

Theresa May angered pro-Brexit MPs on Monday by conceding that the European court of justice would continue to have jurisdiction over the UK during the “implementation period” when Britain leaves the European Union.


In response to a question from Jacob Rees-Mogg, who was the darling of Eurosceptic Conservative MPs at the party’s conference last week, the prime minister said a transition deal, “may mean we will start off with European court of justice still governing rules we’re part of for that period”...

...Jurisdiction of the ECJ during a transition was one of the “red lines” set out by Boris Johnson in an interview with the Sun in the run-up to the Conservative party conference.

___________

May might p1ss off enough of the wing-nuts with this that she could end up out of a job, with Johnson pushed forward as her replacement.

 

[monkeybarry]

You know what he means.
You get to vote against a conservative MP, who is led by a conservative leader, who is there to represent, as leader, the conservative party who all (in the main) sign up to the manifesto of that party.

Indeed
And the Brexit voted was as close as possible as a comparison and it was therefore a vote in the abilities of the UK political establishment to deliver - which is the bit I disagreed with, the ability of the UK political establishment is not good enough to deliver.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think you're confusing lack of appetite with boredom. People are just bored of talking about it

The content of this thread doesn't back you up. It does seem to show that those aligned with Leave are indeed 'bored' of defending their position as it gets harder to justify. If leaves argument was strong and clear, there would be no shortage of I told u so proclamations. But now things are not working out as outlined/ promised those people are 'bored' [emoji23]


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

The content of this thread doesn't back you up. It does seem to show that those aligned with Leave are indeed 'bored' of defending their position as it gets harder to justify. If leaves argument was strong and clear, there would be no shortage of I told u so proclamations. But now things are not working out as outlined/ promised those people are 'bored' [emoji23]


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Serious question are you trolling now?????

I am several others gave reasons for voting out those reasons were long held positions and project fear which is clearly ongoing is not going to change that.

I respect your opinion and your right to have an opinion but I will put this in very strong language now. Your are absolutely pathetic for trying to pass of your hopes and wishes as other peoples opinions. You and people like you with your trolling your constant and down right patronising and pathetic attempts to discredit the way people think are truly pathetic.

What is saddest some 18 months after the vote is that you people still can not come to terms with the fact that millions in this country voted for something you do not like. I hated Gordon Brown after he stole my pension, could not believe people kept voting for new labour, but i got on with it. Show some maturity and try to understand millions of people voted out, and if opinion polls are to be believed quite a lot of the ones that voted to remain had serious issues with the EU as well but decided as was their right to vote for the status quo despite reservations.

To have to keep telling you the same right is boring, it is not that I or others have changed our opinion it is that you can not accept people who have different opinions to yours. You are showing yourself up to be bigoted and condescending, and you people still not understand why people voted out.

As for the electorate being misled over the referendum campaign, i believe this is in reference to the bus and the nhs money thing. Well the thing that probably swung the referendum was the immigration issues(no where close to being the biggest issue for me) and it has been proven due to the comments coming from Brussels that we can not have control of our borders and stay inside the EU. So on the biggest issue for most on Brexit, they have not been lied to, to get what they want they have to leave the EU.

Lastly if you insist on suggesting and hinting that people who voted for Brexit have now changed their mind because we are fed up of having to continually explain the reasons we voted for it, which have been done to death. I shall report you as a troll, you have moved from the debating part of the thread and I feel the is a clear case for the mods looking into trolling on your last post.

Goodnight to you fellow Tottenham fan.