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Politics, politics, politics

milo said:
The problem is that the measures you could conceivable put in place to address that would be opposed by Eurosceptics as being a move to further integration and national governments would also block it because it could undermine them.

I think that in the UK, at least, a large part of the problems are because the print media is very anti-EU and the government has consistently pitted themselves against it for domestic gain. The mistruths have stuck and impossible to counter now. As a country, I think that we need to grow up and stop seeing everything through the prism of the second world war.
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Actually, I propose more local control - the exact opposite.

No supranational decision makers and more power devolved from Westminster to local government.
 
milo said:
That's great but is someone in that position going to want to make me a coffee?
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Robots will do that. Dealing with the automation of a large proportion of low paid jobs will be the big challenge of the next 10-20 years.

There will also still be students coming in - socially and economically desirable, but who will do low-paid casual work for a few years
 
Gutter Boy said:
Robots will do that. Dealing with the automation of a large proportion of low paid jobs will be the big challenge of the next 10-20 years.

There will also still be students coming in - socially and economically desirable, but who will do low-paid casual work for a few years
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I think that you miss the point. The economy needs far more from immigration than highly educated, independently wealthy individuals.

There are gaps right across the economy that we have trouble filling from domestic workers. With an aging population this is only going to become harder.

A work permit system is too rigid and will end up harming the economy.
 
scaramanga said:
Actually, I propose more local control - the exact opposite.

No supranational decision makers and more power devolved from Westminster to local government.
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I agree. I thought at the time that Labour should have included plans for a federal UK in their manifesto at the last election.

It might prove difficult with relation to right to work though because many jobs are not limited to a region.
 
r-u-s-x said:
I have never come across politico.eu before how reliable are their reporters? as there is a lot of detail in that report but not a lot of quotes. If true the only thing it shows me is Merkel is determined to get article 50 enacted ASAP -
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I don't know and I find it difficult to tell how reliable anything is at the moment. I just treat it as tittle tattle until something is corroborated.
 
milo said:
I think that you miss the point. The economy needs far more from immigration than highly educated, independently wealthy individuals.

There are gaps right across the economy that we have trouble filling from domestic workers. With an aging population this is only going to become harder.

A work permit system is too rigid and will end up harming the economy.
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So slowly shrink the economy in line with the natural slightly shrinking population. That's the sustainable solution, rather than proliferating the Ponzi scheme. It's kind of where Japan is at at the moment.
 
scaramanga said:
Actually, I propose more local control - the exact opposite.

No supranational decision makers and more power devolved from Westminster to local government.
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There's not enough brain pool in district/city governments. And there's no common identity in Blair's vision of super-regions (see the Manchester-Liverpool or Sheffield-Leeds conflicts). Personally I'd look to beef back up county councils. Try to reconnect metropolitan areas with the shires.
 
Gutter Boy said:
So slowly shrink the economy in line with the natural slightly shrinking population. That's the sustainable solution, rather than proliferating the Ponzi scheme. It's kind of where Japan is at at the moment.
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The tax burden on those left working would increase significantly.

Japan has not intentionally shrunk it's economy. In fact it has been doing everything that it can do to beat stagnation.

What you are suggesting seems to be based on little but ideology, with little thought into its impacts or evidence to support it.
 
milo said:
The tax burden on those left working would increase significantly.

Japan has not intentionally shrunk it's economy. In fact it has been doing everything that it can do to beat stagnation.

What you are suggesting seems to be based on little but ideology, with little thought into its impacts or evidence to support it.
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Absolutely. An ideology of sustainability. Instead of an ideology of consumption, exploitation and destruction

It would be nice to be the generation that brings back balance after 100 years of Haber–Bosch fueled excess.
 
Is there a limit to growth? Most of the Growth in the UK in recent years has come from immigration and increased personal debt with little or no increase in living standards. We have also championed globalization in order to open up more markets to grow into.

All companies are expected to grow each and every year - so a company earing 500 M in profit is seen to be unsuccessful if they had earned 550M the year before, in isolation is earning 500M profit not a good year.

Is there a ceiling for a countries growth, hence the need to import Labour or increase the markets we sell to. Perhaps Marx was right in his conclusions but just got his timelines wrong.

It has always bothered me and more so since growth by technological advancement has slowed.

" The tax burden on those left working would increase significantly." yes but what is the alternative, we cant keep increasing the workforce as more people move into retirement.
 
This matches my views on what I think will be the options-

City must apply EU rules to keep lead role, says eurogroup chief
https://www.ft.com/content/942f7b86-b62d-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d

The City of London risks losing its role as the continent’s premier financial centre unless the UK agrees to fully apply EU regulations post-Brexit, one of Europe’s most senior policymakers has warned

The intervention by Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the president of the eurogroup, would in effect scupper any attempt by Britain to negotiate a special deal for its financial industry to maintain prized “passporting” rights to operate across the EU.

...The remarks make clear that Britain will have to choose between retaining market access or having the freedom to attract business by lowering regulatory standards. The policymaker was echoing warnings from other EU leaders that the UK would not be allowed to “have its cake and eat it”.
 
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r-u-s-x said:
This matches my views on what I think will be the options-

City must apply EU rules to keep lead role, says eurogroup chief
https://www.ft.com/content/942f7b86-b62d-11e6-961e-a1acd97f622d

The City of London risks losing its role as the continent’s premier financial centre unless the UK agrees to fully apply EU regulations post-Brexit, one of Europe’s most senior policymakers has warned

The intervention by Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the president of the eurogroup, would in effect scupper any attempt by Britain to negotiate a special deal for its financial industry to maintain prized “passporting” rights to operate across the EU.

...The remarks make clear that Britain will have to choose between retaining market access or having the freedom to attract business by lowering regulatory standards. The policymaker was echoing warnings from other EU leaders that the UK would not be allowed to “have its cake and eat it”.
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I don't think that's news. If you want to sell a product or service into a market then your product or service has to come ply with their standards.

If we were to sell widgets to New Zealand the widgets would have to pass the local conformity regulations there too.
 
Robspur12 said:
I am sure there have been discussions like there will be discussions on many issues.There will be idealists and there will be pragmatists. But it has not happened because I genuinely don't believe there is the political will for complete political integration. In the end each leader of the member state has to answer to his/her electorate. The leaders of the major powers are fiercely proud of their Countries' sovereignty and identity. This not just a British thing.
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Political Union has not happened...so far. But make no mistake the power players of the EU absolutely want it to happen and have said so many times. It may only be a matter of time before it does by stealth. Why have a role of EU President and an EU Parliament if that is not the plan? The people/electorates in Europe are indeed proud and Bexit is partly a reflection of that here. I bet if similar votes were to be held across the EU at this time many more would vote similarly (i would expect most towards the East would be pro, whilst the rest would be more mixed than we think).

Robspur12 said:
The close ties between the member states has helped them cooperate in a way that I believe is unprecedented in history. Each Member state maintaining its unique identity, its language, religion and culture whilst working together for a common good. This is not analogous with the Holy Roman Empire where regions were conquered, identities suppressed and religions coerced. I don't see that at all within the EU.
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Co-operation is always a good thing. It has been done in the past and can happen without an EU. This cooperation is different in that it is a form of superstate building by osmosis (i.e. through creation of deep Economic and Trading ties) as opposed to by conquering through war and subjugation. If the EU top dogs keep harping on about the desire for Economic AND Political Union how can member states keep their unique identities? It's not like all the nations that form the EU are all of the same tyoe of cultures and languages.
Also, what is this "common good" you speak of?

Robspur12 said:
I don't get this statement. In 30 years, major technological advances such as the internet, mobile phones, social media have also become part of every day life. We could function without them, we have done in the past. But we know life will be harder without those things and we would be at a major disadvantage against our competitors. It's the same with leaving the EU. We know Britain can survive, but life will be harder and there is a risk we will be left behind.
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I think leaving the EU is nothing like doing without the major technological advancements of gthe last 30 years or so. The fact that Brexit is being compared in such a way says it all about the whole EU debate: when the case for staying in the EU cannot be made Politically, then the case is made Economically - the main vehicle of the project; when that doesn't 'win' then it comes down to anyone who doesn't want to be part of the EU project (in it's supersate-building guise) "wanting to live in the past."
One thing i have to admire about the architects of the EU is their marketing skills!
 
glorygloryeze said:
Political Union has not happened...so far. But make no mistake the power players of the EU absolutely want it to happen and have said so many times. It may only be a matter of time before it does by stealth. Why have a role of EU President and an EU Parliament if that is not the plan? The people/electorates in Europe are indeed proud and Bexit is partly a reflection of that here. I bet if similar votes were to be held across the EU at this time many more would vote similarly (i would expect most towards the East would be pro, whilst the rest would be more mixed than we think).
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A super-state cannot be done by stealth. It would require a new treaty which would require a referendum in many member states and all countries have a veto on.

There are five EU Presidents and they have nothing to do with a covert plan to form a super-state and everything to do with the running of the block.

The presidents are:

President of the European Parliament - runs the parliament, a similar role to speaker.
President of the European Council - chairs meetings of the European Council. Chosen by the national governments
President of the Council of European Union - chairs the Council of Ministers. Rotates between the member states.
President of the European Commissioners - chairs meetings of the European Commission. Commissioners are chosen by member states. Proposed by the European Council before a vote by the European Parliament.
President of the Courts of Justice - elected by the judges.
President of the European Central Bank - head of the central bank. Chosen by the European Council.

I think that the main problem here is the title president, if they were called head I doubt that there would be such suspicion of them.
 
milo said:
A super-state cannot be done by stealth. It would require a new treaty which would require a referendum in many member states and all countries have a veto on.

There are five EU Presidents and they have nothing to do with a covert plan to form a super-state and everything to do with the running of the block.

The presidents are:

President of the European Parliament - runs the parliament, a similar role to speaker.
President of the European Council - chairs meetings of the European Council. Chosen by the national governments
President of the Council of European Union - chairs the Council of Ministers. Rotates between the member states.
President of the European Commissioners - chairs meetings of the European Commission. Commissioners are chosen by member states. Proposed by the European Council before a vote by the European Parliament.
President of the Courts of Justice - elected by the judges.
President of the European Central Bank - head of the central bank. Chosen by the European Council.

I think that the main problem here is the title president, if they were called head I doubt that there would be such suspicion of them.
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When is a treaty not a treaty?.

When the EU wants to do something its citizens don't.

Could do with a better punch line, but it's worryingly true.
 
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