Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[monkeybarry]

Or, Boris wins a majority. Current polling suggests he might? He spends until the summer trying to get a FTA with the EU, but they will not give no-strings-attached trade. THe EU members will protect the single market - why wouldn't they? So a compromise is us still paying the EU, still observing the EU court on standards for goods going into the EU, still signed up to treaties stopping the UK being some kind of low regulation low tax heaven, that will undermine the EU. Why would the EU let us undercut them, to then sell into their market? The idea is balmy.

The commons won't back a trade deal with the US that sells out food standards or the NHS, and the loss of trade with the EU will hurt. Jobs. UK prosperity. This will push Boris into Bino. Where we follow the rules but have no seat at the table.

I prefer your scenario.

People are fed up (apparently) - that tends to signal voting for change.
The Tories can't put anything on the table that resembles change.
Labour can say what the hell they like - banking on going into coalition so they get a spacegoat.
I genuinely can't see the Tories getting a majority, they have no USP.

 

[Rorschach]

In the pub this afternoon (and after a very early rugby start) I happened to say that whilst I generally hate the "c" word, there are two people in this world for whom it could have been invented. One being RSol. Lots of understanding nods and comments from those (non-Spurs) around me. Then someone asked who the other person was. Nigel Farage, says I, the very epitome of the word. Cue outrage from all around me at the very suggestion.
The bloke is a racist, bigoted, self-serving, egoistic, racist (did I already say that?),right wing mouthpiece, but he does know how to play a crowd. Our mainstream politicians need to work out how to nullify him, especially as the mainstream media will lap him up.

There is nothing factually wrong with this post

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

In the pub this afternoon (and after a very early rugby start) I happened to say that whilst I generally hate the "c" word, there are two people in this world for whom it could have been invented. One being RSol. Lots of understanding nods and comments from those (non-Spurs) around me. Then someone asked who the other person was. Nigel Farage, says I, the very epitome of the word. Cue outrage from all around me at the very suggestion.
The bloke is a racist, bigoted, self-serving, egoistic, racist (did I already say that?),right wing mouthpiece, but he does know how to play a crowd. Our mainstream politicians need to work out how to nullify him, especially as the mainstream media will lap him up.

What a strutting , preening, self indulgent, lying piece of brick he is

 

[StephenH]

In the pub this afternoon (and after a very early rugby start) I happened to say that whilst I generally hate the "c" word, there are two people in this world for whom it could have been invented. One being RSol. Lots of understanding nods and comments from those (non-Spurs) around me. Then someone asked who the other person was. Nigel Farage, says I, the very epitome of the word. Cue outrage from all around me at the very suggestion.
The bloke is a racist, bigoted, self-serving, egoistic, racist (did I already say that?),right wing mouthpiece, but he does know how to play a crowd. Our mainstream politicians need to work out how to nullify him, especially as the mainstream media will lap him up.

Farage is a clown of an opportunist. I also hate the c-word!
Hope you are correct! The thought of a conservative majority with Boris is far too irritating.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Farage being interviewed on Andrew Marr now. He puts his points across well - but Marr is barely challenging anything he says, so he is able to do so.

 

[wiziwig]

Labour need the Lib Dems to win seats so it can be a Labour led coalition and Labour can spacegoat them for having another referendum.

I think we might end up with a Labour/LD/SNP coalition. With the Tories having the most seats but no majority and no ability to govern as a minority.

Cue an EU referendum in April (which I think will go remain) a Scottish independence referendum in October (which will be stay in EU ref is remain and leave the union is EU ref stays Leave)

A couple of years of anger. Then the LDs (well actually the labour centrists, but in the LDs name) will temper Labours crazy left stuff and we'll be back to centrist politics.

That is my prediction.

I'm in agreement with your prediction...Remain in the EU and return to the 'centrist' two party duopoly that has so united the nation's people these past 45 years..

 

[wiziwig]

People won't forget democracy being overturned so easily

They will be labeled the extremists!.. Then there's Netflix, bread and circuses, a raising of the minimum wage and all the other nanny state bribery to be used so as to pacify the rest of the malcontents...

 

[wiziwig]

In the pub this afternoon (and after a very early rugby start) I happened to say that whilst I generally hate the "c" word, there are two people in this world for whom it could have been invented. One being RSol. Lots of understanding nods and comments from those (non-Spurs) around me. Then someone asked who the other person was. Nigel Farage, says I, the very epitome of the word. Cue outrage from all around me at the very suggestion.
The bloke is a racist, bigoted, self-serving, egoistic, racist (did I already say that?),right wing mouthpiece, but he does know how to play a crowd. Our mainstream politicians need to work out how to nullify him, especially as the mainstream media will lap him up.

UKIP at the 2015 general election won nearly 4 million votes - many of those votes were won on the back of concerns for mass immigration and the growth of Islam. By turning his back on UKIP, denouncing them as racist and forming his single issue Brexit Party, he took the voter away from those issues...

The British establishment do not want a Front National or an AFD ...He's playing his part in seeing that does not happen so I'd have thought some appreciation for his work is in order from some of you.

 

[SpurMeUp]

People are fed up (apparently) - that tends to signal voting for change.
The Tories can't put anything on the table that resembles change.
Labour can say what the hell they like - banking on going into coalition so they get a spacegoat.
I genuinely can't see the Tories getting a majority, they have no USP.

Current polls suggest a Boris majority. It might change, but the Torries are doing everything to grab Labour's thunder, and Labour don't have May's low charisma persona to help them come back this time. Tories are cancelling fracking, giving money for the NHS and will do everything to grab Labour leave votes; because if they do they will get a majority. I think they should do it.

@wiziwig Farrage pivoting to a less racist stance is not an ethical move. It is because he recognises his appeal is limited as a racist party. However, he will use it if it gets him votes - as was the case with Brexit. The Brexit vote would not have got over the line without him putting immigration front and centre so no one noticed the economic implications of Brexit. How do you feel that Brexit could lead to a less white UK? Maybe that is another reason Farrage has stepped away from immigration now.

 

[monkeybarry]

@SpurMeUp - completely agree re; current polling and Tory actions.
And part of that is why Labour are currently keeping their powder dry - it's too early, the election campaign hasn't officially started yet.
Fracking; Labour - "it should never have needed cancelling, it shouldn't have started in the first place".....is a lead in line for environmental policies. Likely to be a winner of votes
NHS; "look what the Tories have done over the past decade. We are THE party of the NHS". That's an easy sell for Labour.

The current polling and Tory actions will nothing but a distant memory in two/three weeks time, let alone in the final week before the election.

This Labour party have a lot of very talented campaigners (not sure on their talent for governances however!).
It's going to be a weird campaign for the electorate. Almost like the last half of extra time in a huge semi final - everyone is exhausted and just wants it over with. But they have to muster up something.
I usually love election periods - but even I'm over it.
So I think a few nice promises will be the difference maker; they can get remainers on board with Ref 2 and the fatigued (the leavers who don't think Brexit will happen irrespective of the outcome) on board with promises of making the country more fair and affluent (a reason many voted to leave apparatus).
That leaves the Tories with No Deal Brexiters and hard line Tories. Which won't be enough.
Unless the Tories push a No Deal angle - that might get some Leavers back on side.

I could be way off, and it's pretty hard to predict. It's going to be interesting.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

UKIP at the 2015 general election won nearly 4 million votes - many of those votes were won on the back of concerns for mass immigration and the growth of Islam. By turning his back on UKIP, denouncing them as racist and forming his single issue Brexit Party, he took the voter away from those issues...

The British establishment do not want a Front National or an AFD ...He's playing his part in seeing that does not happen so I'd have thought some appreciation for his work is in order from some of you.

Hmm.

Leopards and spots and all that.

I wonder which party most of those 4 million voters will look to this time around?

Thanks but I think I’ll hold back on the Farage appreciation.

 

[SpurMeUp]

@SpurMeUp - completely agree re; current polling and Tory actions.
And part of that is why Labour are currently keeping their powder dry - it's too early, the election campaign hasn't officially started yet.
Fracking; Labour - "it should never have needed cancelling, it shouldn't have started in the first place".....is a lead in line for environmental policies. Likely to be a winner of votes
NHS; "look what the Tories have done over the past decade. We are THE party of the NHS". That's an easy sell for Labour.

The current polling and Tory actions will nothing but a distant memory in two/three weeks time, let alone in the final week before the election.

This Labour party have a lot of very talented campaigners (not sure on their talent for governances however!).
It's going to be a weird campaign for the electorate. Almost like the last half of extra time in a huge semi final - everyone is exhausted and just wants it over with. But they have to muster up something.
I usually love election periods - but even I'm over it.
So I think a few nice promises will be the difference maker; they can get remainers on board with Ref 2 and the fatigued (the leavers who don't think Brexit will happen irrespective of the outcome) on board with promises of making the country more fair and affluent (a reason many voted to leave apparatus).
That leaves the Tories with No Deal Brexiters and hard line Tories. Which won't be enough.
Unless the Tories push a No Deal angle - that might get some Leavers back on side.

I could be way off, and it's pretty hard to predict. It's going to be interesting.

I like your thinking. Different ways to spin it. You could say all Labour really have is the NHS. And how long can you bang on about it? But it is probably their biggest election weapon. People care about it more than brexit. But for a leave labour supporter, has Boris has done enough on the NHS, making the right noises and more cash available?

A weird election. It is not clear if its a proxy brexit vote or are people supposed to vote for the best government, irrespective? It's a Frankenstein election - "I want leave, don't like the Tories, but will vote for them". Or the one nation Conservatives who want to remain, and will vote LibDem.

Unfortunately, every outcome of this election will lead to more nonsense. Whichever way the vote falls, the UK will have at least 1 year of brexit crap to get through. And if its a pro brexit vote it could run for a lot longer. As outined previously Boris "getting Brexit done" will lead to BINO. Bino will lead to...? We either take BINO as the least bad option or there is a referendum to ratify or cancel it. Labour's stance on Brexit makes sense. But it is complex to explain why. When all people can really grasp is "get it done". "Cancel it". Much easier to sell, even if its another lie.

 

[Rorschach]

I like your thinking. Different ways to spin it. You could say all Labour really have is the NHS. And how long can you bang on about it? But it is probably their biggest election weapon. People care about it more than brexit. But for a leave labour supporter, has Boris has done enough on the NHS, making the right noises and more cash available?

A weird election. It is not clear if its a proxy brexit vote or are people supposed to vote for the best government, irrespective? It's a Frankenstein election - "I want leave, don't like the Tories, but will vote for them". Or the one nation Conservatives who want to remain, and will vote LibDem.

Unfortunately, every outcome of this election will lead to more nonsense. Whichever way the vote falls, the UK will have at least 1 year of brexit crap to get through. And if its a pro brexit vote it could run for a lot longer. As outined previously Boris "getting Brexit done" will lead to BINO. Bino will lead to...? We either take BINO as the least bad option or there is a referendum to ratify or cancel it. Labour's stance on Brexit makes sense. But it is complex to explain why. When all people can really grasp is "get it done". "Cancel it". Much easier to sell, even if its another lie.

Get it done is a disingenuous slogan really. Any sort of Brexit is only a door into years and years of trade deals. It will be never-ending.

 

[monkeybarry]

@SpurMeUp agree with all of that.
A Frankenstein election is the perfect description and I'm sure there will be a split of Brexit voters and Parliamentary terms voters.
I know for me the Brexit position is very low down my agenda.
I think Labour will have more than the NHS (whether they are deliverable is another debate!) - they will focus on parity and fairness for all, especially in the workplace and pulling down the barriers faced by the "lower and middle" classes. (I don't recognise those descriptions, but can't think of better terms). And then some environmental stuff.
It will be interesting to see how people will consider those more important than Brexit.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Get it done is a disingenuous slogan really. Any sort of Brexit is only a door into years and years of trade deals. It will be never-ending.

And the key trade deal - with the EU - will not give the UK complete freedom as well as free trade with the EU. That is an insurmountable issue/fact down the line. So the UK sacrifices jobs and tax revenue for a hope that freedom to make direct trade agreements, control labor laws, consumer protection laws, working conditions laws will somehow miraculously lead to more UK trade outside the EU. Economists don't buy it, but its complex enough that the UK population will. But for how long?

When jobs go, then what? Well my logic is Boris pulls back when faced with job losses, low investment into the UK, a weak pound etc and delivers BINO instead.

 

[Gutter Boy]

How so? I see the opposite at the moment.

Grown up - proroguing parliament, bickering, threatening MPs. Brexit has been a backward step. The UK used to be respected as 'grown up', stable and logical. The world over we were seen as a safe pair of hands. At the moment, we're a laughing stock. Because of Brexit we're percieved as the opposite of "grown-up".

Agile - our government have been in lockdown, unable to deal with the most basic of business. Brexit has bought about the opposite of agility in UK government.

Democratic - since the vote polls show there is a majority of people who wish to stay part of the worlds largest trading block the EU. That makes brexit undemocratic as we stand here today.

Grown-up, because we will be able to take independent economic decisions

Agile because we will be able to take independent economic decisions

And democratic because votes in future general elections will actually matter, because economic options other than the Washington Consensus will be on the table again

 

[SpurMeUp]

Grown-up, because we will be able to take independent economic decisions

Agile because we will be able to take independent economic decisions

And democratic because votes in future general elections will actually matter, because economic options other than the Washington Consensus will be on the table again

Please give examples of the first two, that you are looking forward to.

As for democratic, were EU elections ever more important than UK ones?

 

[Gutter Boy]

In the pub this afternoon (and after a very early rugby start) I happened to say that whilst I generally hate the "c" word, there are two people in this world for whom it could have been invented. One being RSol. Lots of understanding nods and comments from those (non-Spurs) around me. Then someone asked who the other person was. Nigel Farage, says I, the very epitome of the word. Cue outrage from all around me at the very suggestion.
The bloke is a racist, bigoted, self-serving, egoistic, racist (did I already say that?),right wing mouthpiece, but he does know how to play a crowd. Our mainstream politicians need to work out how to nullify him, especially as the mainstream media will lap him up.

I've been a passionate leaver ever since Maastricht. Farage doesn't in anyway represent what I see as the leave movement.

For me Jenny Jones (Leader of the Greens in the Lords) has taken over Tony Benn's spiritual leadership of leave: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/08/eu-reform-green-brexit

 

[Gutter Boy]

Please give examples of the first two, that you are looking forward to.

As for democratic, were EU elections ever more important than UK ones?

On a big scale - Socialism, Keynesianism, Degrowth etc. - all currently illegal under EU state aid and competition laws

On a small scale - variable VAT rates e.g. tax discounts on green/local products, for small businesses. Basically everything in our economy is currently rigged for the big corporations. Out of EU state aid and competition laws we could balancing things out - support the interests of community over the interests of the multi-nationals.

The whole design of the EU was never to allow people to vote on the important things. The EU Parliament has always been a petty distraction. The Commission has all the power. Where can I vote for a more right/left wing version of that?

 

[SpurMeUp]

On a big scale - Socialism, Keynesianism, Degrowth etc. - all currently illegal under EU state aid and competition laws

On a small scale - variable VAT rates e.g. tax discounts on green/local products, for small businesses. Basically everything in our economy is currently rigged for the big corporations. Out of EU state aid and competition laws we could balancing things out - support the interests of community over the interests of the multi-nationals.

The whole design of the EU was never to allow people to vote on the important things. The EU Parliament has always been a petty distraction. The Commission has all the power. Where can I vote for a more right/left wing version of that?

Socialism illegal under EU laws....what a gas!

Might you explain what the French are up to? Their government - or the people - own part of Renault, EDF, Total, Air-France/KLM the railways etc. How the hell did they do this when in the EU!? Swines. The EU has lots of socialist nations far more socialist than the UK.

There is nothing stopping the UK from supporting community over multi-nationals now. Furthermore, the EU protects workers rights and our environment - things the Tories want to tear up. Would you be happy with that?

The whole design of the EU is it looks after boring trade laws etc If we want transparency - it is there. You have an MEP. You have elections. But who cares about the details of trade deal with Canada? Or stopping factories polluting our seas? THe EU just gets on with it, saving the UK time and hassle. And if the UK doesn't like the new law - we have a veto.