Performances over a season

[Modric THFC]

I think we have to bear in mind that AVB didn't write this book. A portuguese journo wrote and its about the tactics he used during a season at Porto. I'm sure there's lots of stuff in there about he always uses a 433 as well.

 

[Mumorn]

To be fair to Redknapp, he managed things superbly that season. He fully understood we were not good enough to compete on several fronts and saw the chance of taking 4th. Thus all efforts were focussed there, and getting Gudjohnsen on loan was a great move. What he did that second-half of that season was not unlike what Wenger did last season, tossed in the towel and went bang out for the top 4. I remember heading up to City convinced we would win, utterly convinced. He did a fine job marshaling the resources that season...

Agreed regarding City, but it was more to the fact that we NEVER lost away at City, we had a ridiculous record there and I knew we would win. I was more shocked at beating Arsenal on a Wednesday night considering we hadn't beat them in over 10 years, then going and beating Chelsea a few days later.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think we have to bear in mind that AVB didn't write this book. A portuguese journo wrote and its about the tactics he used during a season at Porto. I'm sure there's lots of stuff in there about he always uses a 433 as well.

So you think he isn't doing what was discussed in the book and in this thread with us? Formations aside. Preparation over a season is what I mean.

 

[Modric THFC]

So you think he isn't doing what was discussed in the book and in this thread with us? Formations aside. Preparation over a season is what I mean.

Tbh I dont think he used this last season, we played at a higher tempo throughout the game until we went ahead. But this season it definitely looks like he's send us out to hold on to the ball for periods of time even before we have scored.

 

[Lilywhite]

Barcelona and Spain have been beating all-comers for a few years playing this way. We've not quite clicked yet, but resting with the ball, patient build-up, probing, suffocating opponents etc. is exactly what they do.

Anyone who is complaining about us being turgid needs to actually sit through all 90 minutes of a standard Barcelona league match. They are anything but the cavalier swashbucklers we've been in our fleeting good moments over the past 20 years.

You surely can't be comparing us to Barcelona in style of play?

Okay, I accept we press high and play a low tempo, just like they do, but that is as far as the similarities go. Rather than bring in creative midfielders, AVB and his team have opted to sign less creative, more box-to-box type midfielders like Dembele and Paulinho. But the big difference is they are
good to watch. They spend the majority of their game manipulating the ball so as to get in good positions and create chances in the 18 yard box, and they hardly ever shoot from distance.

We, on the other hand, pass the ball about without much purpose other than maybe a defensive one, keeping it so opponents can't attack us, and then give it to Townsend, Sigurdsson or Paulinho to absolutely maul wide or over the bar from 25 yards out. I'm telling you, from what I have watched of us in 2013, first with Bale and Dempsey shooting from ridiculous ranges, now with the three I mentioned above, that seems to be our main approach to scoring goals (along with fortunate penalties).

It's extremely harsh on Barcelona's players to compare them to us. Lots of teams press and play low tempo games in Spain, so in that respect we are similar to them, but they then aim to create chances through cunning passes and the like, whereas we shoot shoot shoot.

 

[Bullet]

1. it's the smart play if it means we can get better performances in the games that matter, and in the business end of the season.

2. It's preparing the squad intelligently in terms of fitness and intensity so they increase the chances of getting performances when they need them.

3. I fully expect us to perform well against Man United on Sunday. Whether we win is another matter, but I back us to perform and look good doing it.

1. All games matter equally. [Next you will say games against the top 4 are 6 pointers and I will say we can lose to the top 4 and beat every other team blah blah]

2. We always need performances.

3. Basically if we play well you will say "I told you so" but if we play torpid, tepid, stultifying football you will say "I told you so, that was the plan" and if we get tonked 4-0 as I expect, you will say "ah we didn't plan to beat United in this game, we wanted to save our intensity for the Christmas period".

What result will not suit your argument?!

 

[DeanoAustin]

I have no idea, but I'm not privy to the other analysis that would take place and I think it would go beyond simply goals scored. It could also revolve around picking a certain player whose distance covered stats seem to drop after a certain point and then attacking him specifically at a certain period of the match. Or maybe concentration has typically dropped at a certain time. I have no idea of the specifics, but that type of planning definitely happens, and I'd really like an explanation from someone that disagrees as to why it is pointless, and why exactly AVB should be sacked right now if it is indeed his approach.

Mate, you're having a laugh.

How often do most teams rotate players week to week (particularly poor performers and weak links). Are you honestly saying that AVB bases a plan on the chance that certain players will play even though there is a chance they won't?

The fact Swansea concede so unpredictably is likely mirrored by individual stats if you went to that level of detail. People have debunked your theory but you refuse to accept it.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

1. All games matter equally. [Next you will say games against the top 4 are 6 pointers and I will say we can lose to the top 4 and beat every other team blah blah]

2. We always need performances.

3. Basically if we play well you will say "I told you so" but if we play torpid, tepid, stultifying football you will say "I told you so, that was the plan" and if we get tonked 4-0 as I expect, you will say "ah we didn't plan to beat United in this game, we wanted to save our intensity for the Christmas period".

What result will not suit your argument?!

We plan to win every game. That does not mean we wouldn't build in rest periods into a plan for matches against lesser teams, or meaningless Europa League matches for example. Again, rest period does not mean try any less, or attempt to throw the game, it means rest with the ball.

I fully expect us to raise our intensity against Man United, and barring giving them a goal head start within 15 seconds and throwing all preparation out of the window I think it will happen.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You surely can't be comparing us to Barcelona in style of play?

Okay, I accept we press high and play a low tempo, just like they do, but that is as far as the similarities go. Rather than bring in creative midfielders, AVB and his team have opted to sign less creative, more box-to-box type midfielders like Dembele and Paulinho. But the big difference is they are
good to watch. They spend the majority of their game manipulating the ball so as to get in good positions and create chances in the 18 yard box, and they hardly ever shoot from distance.

We, on the other hand, pass the ball about without much purpose other than maybe a defensive one, keeping it so opponents can't attack us, and then give it to Townsend, Sigurdsson or Paulinho to absolutely maul wide or over the bar from 25 yards out. I'm telling you, from what I have watched of us in 2013, first with Bale and Dempsey shooting from ridiculous ranges, now with the three I mentioned above, that seems to be our main approach to scoring goals (along with fortunate penalties).

It's extremely harsh on Barcelona's players to compare them to us. Lots of teams press and play low tempo games in Spain, so in that respect we are similar to them, but they then aim to create chances through cunning passes and the like, whereas we shoot shoot shoot.

Maybe not Barca, because they are out of this world. But Spain, I think we are trying to be like them. Lots said they were boring when they were winning tournaments, but it was actually the perfect execution of a plan. And they turned on the intensity when they needed to. Such as in finals.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Mate, you're having a laugh.

How often do most teams rotate players week to week (particularly poor performers and weak links). Are you honestly saying that AVB bases a plan on the chance that certain players will play even though there is a chance they won't?

The fact Swansea concede so unpredictably is likely mirrored by individual stats if you went to that level of detail. People have debunked your theory but you refuse to accept it.

How has anyone debunked anything?

All I've heard is that stats are meaningless, football is a simple game. Nothing to actually suggest we don't do what I have articulated, or what commentators on AVB's career have suggested is his MO.

Also haven't really heard any concrete arguments as to why the particular approach to season planning wouldn't be beneficial. Just a lot of 'we should try to win every game' which I haven't remotely said we shouldn't do. Merely that the approach to different games will be different, and planning this will stand us in good sense over the long course of a season.

 

[milo]

Tbh I dont think he used this last season, we played at a higher tempo throughout the game until we went ahead. But this season it definitely looks like he's send us out to hold on to the ball for periods of time even before we have scored.

I think that you are mistaking tempo over a game with fluctuations in intensity over a season. Although, I suspect that we might see changes to both as the season goes on.

 

[DeanoAustin]

How has anyone debunked anything?

All I've heard is that stats are meaningless, football is a simple game. Nothing to actually suggest we don't do what I have articulated, or what commentators on AVB's career have suggested is his MO.

Also haven't really heard any concrete arguments as to why the particular approach to season planning wouldn't be beneficial. Just a lot of 'we should try to win every game' which I haven't remotely said we shouldn't do. Merely that the approach to different games will be different, and planning this will stand us in good sense over the long course of a season.

Because you said Arsenal practice the same strategy. Yet this season they've started like a house on fire.

Because you've said Wigan were conditioned the same way despite winning 1 of their last 8 games last season.

Because even allowing for Sunderland being a good performance (which it wasnt) we didnt produce a good performance in our last 10 games lasy season.

And thats just for starters.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Because you said Arsenal practice the same strategy. Yet this season they've started like a house on fire.

Because you've said Wigan were conditioned the same way despite winning 1 of their last 8 games last season.

Because even allowing for Sunderland being a good performance (which it wasnt) we didnt produce a good performance in our last 10 games lasy season.

And thats just for starters.

So you deny that planning for peak performance at certain times of the season takes place at clubs? I'm not saying it is always 'ramp it up at the end of the year', it may be clubs want to ramp it up at the start, manage a dip just before Christmas before ramping it up in February. And there could be a range of reasons why that is the case.

I would venture that clubs look at each other and what they expect to happen, and plan off of that. Arsenal look at their settled squad and the transitional period of their rivals and probably decide that capitalising on that is worthwhile to build up a head of steam. Ditto Liverpool. I don't know if this is exactly what they are doing but it definitely takes place in clubs, I definitely expect them both to have a dip in form at some point and it wouldn't surprise me if that has been the plan. In other years, they may plan to be firing at whichever other point in the season they so desire.

Wigan were 100% prepared to ramp up the intensity towards the end of seasons. That it didn't work (even though they won the FA Cup, so it still kind of did) last year could possibly be put down to injuries, or due to the fact that their rivals - such as Villa - cottoned on to their strategy and with their superior squads decided to match Wigan's intensity at the same point, and were able to pull away. It was no coincidence that every single year they would look like utter no hopers and out of nowhere start playing what was often times quite gorgeous football.

As for your last line, it's ridiculously harsh on our performances last season. Simple as that. But I'm not even saying that the whole thing is to make sure we are firing at the end. It is also about making sure we are firing at certain points within games. That 100% certainly is AVB's strategy. It's been written down and documented. And it's that rest with the ball, not exerting ourselves in pointless games and ramping up the intensity when needed, which is going to allow us to play matches right across a season on our terms.

 

[billyiddo]

To be fair to Redknapp, he managed things superbly that season. He fully understood we were not good enough to compete on several fronts and saw the chance of taking 4th. Thus all efforts were focussed there, and getting Gudjohnsen on loan was a great move. What he did that second-half of that season was not unlike what Wenger did last season, tossed in the towel and went bang out for the top 4. I remember heading up to City convinced we would win, utterly convinced. He did a fine job marshaling the resources that season...

great season and definitely Harrys best for us

 

[milo]

No, I expect coaches implement tactics BEFORE the game in order to try and influence its outcome.

I expect tactics play a bigger role than stats. I'm sure most successful coaches use their eyes and watch games as to the level of success of said tactics, rather than pouring over stats.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/aug/16/manchester-city-player-statistics

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/jen_chang/04/29/performance.analytics/

http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2013/06/17/arsenals-gazidis-and-his-harvard-geniuses/

:-k

 

[Lilywhite]

Maybe not Barca, because they are out of this world. But Spain, I think we are trying to be like them. Lots said they were boring when they were winning tournaments, but it was actually the perfect execution of a plan. And they turned on the intensity when they needed to. Such as in finals.

Yes but Spain have players who are good enough to keep 60% of possession in games, then BANG, their players bring out their creative skills and create chances. We haven't signed many creative players, Dembele, Holtby and co are capable of passing a ball about between themselves for hours but when do we really actually step it up? I don't see us all of a sudden become more creative during games. If we wanted to play the way you believe then we would have signed players more suited to it.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Yes but Spain have players who are good enough to keep 60% of possession in games, then BANG, their players bring out their creative skills and create chances. We haven't signed many creative players, Dembele, Holtby and co are capable of passing a ball about between themselves for hours but when do we really actually step it up? I don't see us all of a sudden become more creative during games. If we wanted to play the way you believe then we would have signed players more suited to it.

I do see us become more creative in games. It's not usually constant, 90 minute pressure creatively (except for Cardiff away) but in most games I definitely see it.

 

[Modric THFC]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2012/aug/16/manchester-city-player-statistics

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/jen_chang/04/29/performance.analytics/

http://hereisthecity.com/en-gb/2013/06/17/arsenals-gazidis-and-his-harvard-geniuses/

:-k

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ays-Sam-Allardyces-Prozone-stats-useless.html

 

[milo]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...ays-Sam-Allardyces-Prozone-stats-useless.html

I don't see your point, I wasn't suggesting that every club/manager used Prozone. What is clear is that all of the top clubs and managers are increasingly using stats analysis to try and gain an advantage.

 

[thfcsteff]

Agreed regarding City, but it was more to the fact that we NEVER lost away at City, we had a ridiculous record there and I knew we would win. I was more shocked at beating Arsenal on a Wednesday night considering we hadn't beat them in over 10 years, then going and beating Chelsea a few days later.

I personally do not think Gomes EVER got the credit he deserved for helping get us into the CL that season. He was ****ing phenomenal. How he was turned from that calibre of keeper into a shattered reserve is one of the many things which got my question-meter going…seriously, remember 'that' save from RVP? Unbelievable.