***OMT - TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs. READING - OMT***

[indianspur]

you know whats missing? a bit of heart and spirit. Against Norwich we never looked like we believed we could win. I dont see any talkers, leaders, its all very worrying so early in the season.

Reading will be bang up for this one, its a must win for them too. Another draw might be the best we can hope for

 

[indospurs]

Must win ! Last year we used the international break to devastating effect and our best start in the league in decades ... sodz law might indicate a different outcome this time around but getting a win is all important

 

[Spursalot]

you know whats missing? a bit of heart and spirit. Against Norwich we never looked like we believed we could win. I dont see any talkers, leaders, its all very worrying so early in the season.

Reading will be bang up for this one, its a must win for them too. Another draw might be the best we can hope for

Dembele was doing this when he was on against Norwich, talking to people and the like.

 

[thfcsteff]

Walker and BAE are playing to instruction and shape/tactics, which is limiting their natural expression. IMO Benny's been great, especially given how isolated he often becomes and how much babysitting he's had to do inside...

 

[Pirate55]

Dembele was doing this when he was on against Norwich, talking to people and the like.

Its funny that its a newbee doing the talking. Would have expected more from Gallas, Sandro and Ade in this respect. Maybe also Vert as he was a captain previously.

I think that things will improve - although Parker isnt a great talker if last season is anything to go by but he does lead by example. With Kaboul out, it seems ideally set up for Daws to return and play a true captains innings.

 

[Pirate55]

Walker and BAE are playing to instruction and shape/tactics, which is limiting their natural expression. IMO Benny's been great, especially given how isolated he often becomes and how much babysitting he's had to do inside...

surely not serious?

 

[thfcsteff]

surely not serious?

Absolutely serious when viewed in context of what he's dealing with. He is often absolutely exposed on the left hand side due to either Bale wandering/switching sides or the midfield shape. Thus watch how often he has to deal with two players at the outset of an attack/breakaway. factor in too the babysitting he has to do for Gallas and Vertonghen, depending on who's where/unable to get back, and essentially, the man has to be in at LEAST two places at once. Finally, consider how his own game has been compromised for the style AVB wishes to play; he does not have the chance to push forward like he used to last season. He often gets tabbed for being 'too flashy' and whatnot, however the alternative to that would be to lump it upfield to a 5ft 8" lone striker or towards players who have not yet seemed to show for the ball. He does, as has been observed in an earlier piece, still look for an inside ball to feet in the pockets just behind the halfway line and just in front of the centre circle (Rafa and Luka territory of old) but due to a lack of fluidity in those areas, his out ball is often locked up. We are seeing exactly how important those two players were to how the likes of Bale function; without someone in there to draw players, Bale can again be doubled up, thus Benny is left hiding a hot potato looking for a pass and knowing that he has been instructed not to push on too much. Once the system clicks, once we actually find our cycler/inside short-passing option/player dropping in who wants the ball, then it might all settle down. Feel fee to shoot it down, but those (IMO) are undeniable facts. For me, he gets slagged off without the surrounding context ever being considered. Look forward to your response mate, all in the spirit of debate!

 

[stinkfoot]

Good post Steff. I must say, as excruciatingly panic inducing as some of his skills around our box sometimes are, I kind of love the fact that we have a defender in our team so sure in himself with a ball at his feet.

3-1 Spurs by the way. Vert with his first of many.

 

[SpurSF]

Absolutely serious when viewed in context of what he's dealing with. He is often absolutely exposed on the left hand side due to either Bale wandering/switching sides or the midfield shape. Thus watch how often he has to deal with two players at the outset of an attack/breakaway. factor in too the babysitting he has to do for Gallas and Vertonghen, depending on who's where/unable to get back, and essentially, the man has to be in at LEAST two places at once. Finally, consider how his own game has been compromised for the style AVB wishes to play; he does not have the chance to push forward like he used to last season. He often gets tabbed for being 'too flashy' and whatnot, however the alternative to that would be to lump it upfield to a 5ft 8" lone striker or towards players who have not yet seemed to show for the ball. He does, as has been observed in an earlier piece, still look for an inside ball to feet in the pockets just behind the halfway line and just in front of the centre circle (Rafa and Luka territory of old) but due to a lack of fluidity in those areas, his out ball is often locked up. We are seeing exactly how important those two players were to how the likes of Bale function; without someone in there to draw players, Bale can again be doubled up, thus Benny is left hiding a hot potato looking for a pass and knowing that he has been instructed not to push on too much. Once the system clicks, once we actually find our cycler/inside short-passing option/player dropping in who wants the ball, then it might all settle down. Feel fee to shoot it down, but those (IMO) are undeniable facts. For me, he gets slagged off without the surrounding context ever being considered. Look forward to your response mate, all in the spirit of debate!

Totally agreed Steff. BAE is class.

I'll go

--------Lloris---------
Walk--Gal--Vert----BAE
---Dembele----Sandro---
Demps--Sig------Bale
---Ade--------------------

3-0 (Sigg, Dempsey, Ade)

 

[Pirate55]

Absolutely serious when viewed in context of what he's dealing with. He is often absolutely exposed on the left hand side due to either Bale wandering/switching sides or the midfield shape. Thus watch how often he has to deal with two players at the outset of an attack/breakaway. factor in too the babysitting he has to do for Gallas and Vertonghen, depending on who's where/unable to get back, and essentially, the man has to be in at LEAST two places at once. Finally, consider how his own game has been compromised for the style AVB wishes to play; he does not have the chance to push forward like he used to last season. He often gets tabbed for being 'too flashy' and whatnot, however the alternative to that would be to lump it upfield to a 5ft 8" lone striker or towards players who have not yet seemed to show for the ball. He does, as has been observed in an earlier piece, still look for an inside ball to feet in the pockets just behind the halfway line and just in front of the centre circle (Rafa and Luka territory of old) but due to a lack of fluidity in those areas, his out ball is often locked up. We are seeing exactly how important those two players were to how the likes of Bale function; without someone in there to draw players, Bale can again be doubled up, thus Benny is left hiding a hot potato looking for a pass and knowing that he has been instructed not to push on too much. Once the system clicks, once we actually find our cycler/inside short-passing option/player dropping in who wants the ball, then it might all settle down. Feel fee to shoot it down, but those (IMO) are undeniable facts. For me, he gets slagged off without the surrounding context ever being considered. Look forward to your response mate, all in the spirit of debate!

In the interests of debate, I consider BAE to be one of the most over-rated players on this board. He is a good player, flamboyant and an interesting personality but imho does not deserve the deification you and others give him. He is often a liability, he tries crazy tricks in ridiculously dangerous positions, he gives away many cheap free kicks, last season played many opponents on side by not keeping the defensive line, is often beaten in the air and is prone to recklessness (eg from reports there was a clear pen which should have been awarded against him for shirt pulling against Norwich). I remember him being skinned on more than one occasion against WBA - the incident close to the corner flag and byline when he was left for dead and which should have resulted in a goal against us, immediately springs to mind.

To deal with your specific points, how do you know he has been instructed to stay back? In fact, most people on here seem to want him to play in a more advanced role and get forward more when we are attacking. How do you know AVB has told him not to? Even last season, when he did venture forward more, his crossing was often appalling. How many assists does he have to his name? Certainly not enough bearing in mind how often he got into great crossing positions last year. This season he hasnt even got into those positions and his wafting the ball in to nowhere was much in evidence against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I dont agree that Bale never helps him out. Bale is often covering back to double up with him. Similarly. why do you think it is necessary for him to babysit two international defenders? I would prefer if he just concentrated on his own duties. Where I do agree with you is that hopefully his distribution will improve when Defoe is replaced by Ade so that he has more of a target man to aim for. But overall, his performances so far this season have been really poor - you only have to look at the ratings people have given him to recognise that fact.

 

[Spursalot]

Bae had five assists in the PL last season.


Considering Lennon had six and VDV had seven, he's not doing badly for a full back.





(My source was not 100% reliable)

 

[thfcsteff]

Continuing the debate mate...my answers in bold...

In the interests of debate, I consider BAE to be one of the most over-rated players on this board. He is a good player, flamboyant and an interesting personality but imho does not deserve the deification you and others give him. He is often a liability, he tries crazy tricks in ridiculously dangerous positions, he gives away many cheap free kicks, last season played many opponents on side by not keeping the defensive line, is often beaten in the air and is prone to recklessness (eg from reports there was a clear pen which should have been awarded against him for shirt pulling against Norwich). I remember him being skinned on more than one occasion against WBA - the incident close to the corner flag and byline when he was left for dead and which should have resulted in a goal against us, immediately springs to mind.

You see one man as responsible for all the above. I see one man often isolated, out-numbered and trying to manage multiple situations. He has, for me, two horrific 45 minute spells per season where for whatever reason, he's a bit mental. Harry would always haul him off at HT at these moments (an away game at Everton springs to mind). I don't see as many cheap free kicks as you do.



To deal with your specific points, how do you know he has been instructed to stay back? In fact, most people on here seem to want him to play in a more advanced role and get forward more when we are attacking. How do you know AVB has told him not to?


Judging by what I'm seeing. Neither full-back has pressed on like last season, and frankly it's a good thing until we sort out the midfield/front options. Of course everyone wants him more advanced; he's one of the best attacking full-backs in the league!




Even last season, when he did venture forward more, his crossing was often appalling.


Totally, 100% disagree.


How many assists does he have to his name? Certainly not enough bearing in mind how often he got into great crossing positions last year.

He was essential to helping free Bale up last season when the latter stayed on the left, ditto his ventures upfield often resulted in a tight inside ball to VdV or Luka. he was integral to a lot of our creative work last season IMO.


This season he hasnt even got into those positions and his wafting the ball in to nowhere was much in evidence against Saudi Sportswashing Machine.


Well, he's responsible for one of our goals this season from one of the few times he did venture upfield. And I'm not sure what you're watching, but it is precisely because he is trying hard NOT to waft it in (no Ade) that he thus gets labelled as a 'liability' for holding the ball too long! I'll take the first-half team performance from new cash all day long if we take our chances BTW.



I dont agree that Bale never helps him out. Bale is often covering back to double up with him.

Mate, Gareth isn't even always on the same side of the pitch due to walkies! I think compared to Lennon, Bale's coverage is inconsistent to say the least.


Similarly. why do you think it is necessary for him to babysit two international defenders? I would prefer if he just concentrated on his own duties.

After 70 minutes Gallas is cream-crackered and liable to get caught (not to mention his galavants upfield, no problem for me but it leaves a gap which needs covering) plus Verts is new and still gets caught out/will continue to until he settles in a few weeks time (top defender IMHO, he will!)...I genuinely cannot think of anyone who's mullered him this season. and I'd stretch to think about it last season too...


Where I do agree with you is that hopefully his distribution will improve when Defoe is replaced by Ade so that he has more of a target man to aim for. But overall, his performances so far this season have been really poor - you only have to look at the ratings people have given him to recognise that fact.

Mate, I don't look at other people's ratings or reviews. I tend to only trust what I see and think versus a few mates. Like most of us. So no, I don't take those ratings as recognizing a "fact" because it isn't one. Neither are my opinions.
The only fact is that he is obviously rated highly enough by our last four managers to be the starting LB for Tottenham Hotspur! Seriously, that is a stone cold fact. And if I have to choose to trust my eyes/read of the game (which appears to run parallel to managers past and present) versus internet chatter, then I'll trust myself and fall on the sword if one is necessary.

Best,
Steff

 

[Pirate55]

Continuing the debate mate...my answers in bold...

In the interests of debate, I consider BAE to be one of the most over-rated players on this board. He is a good player, flamboyant and an interesting personality but imho does not deserve the deification you and others give him. He is often a liability, he tries crazy tricks in ridiculously dangerous positions, he gives away many cheap free kicks, last season played many opponents on side by not keeping the defensive line, is often beaten in the air and is prone to recklessness (eg from reports there was a clear pen which should have been awarded against him for shirt pulling against Norwich). I remember him being skinned on more than one occasion against WBA - the incident close to the corner flag and byline when he was left for dead and which should have resulted in a goal against us, immediately springs to mind.

You see one man as responsible for all the above. I see one man often isolated, out-numbered and trying to manage multiple situations. He has, for me, two horrific 45 minute spells per season where for whatever reason, he's a bit mental. Harry would always haul him off at HT at these moments (an away game at Everton springs to mind). I don't see as many cheap free kicks as you do.



To deal with your specific points, how do you know he has been instructed to stay back? In fact, most people on here seem to want him to play in a more advanced role and get forward more when we are attacking. How do you know AVB has told him not to?


Judging by what I'm seeing. Neither full-back has pressed on like last season, and frankly it's a good thing until we sort out the midfield/front options. Of course everyone wants him more advanced; he's one of the best attacking full-backs in the league!




Even last season, when he did venture forward more, his crossing was often appalling.


Totally, 100% disagree.


How many assists does he have to his name? Certainly not enough bearing in mind how often he got into great crossing positions last year.

He was essential to helping free Bale up last season when the latter stayed on the left, ditto his ventures upfield often resulted in a tight inside ball to VdV or Luka. he was integral to a lot of our creative work last season IMO.


This season he hasnt even got into those positions and his wafting the ball in to nowhere was much in evidence against Saudi Sportswashing Machine.


Well, he's responsible for one of our goals this season from one of the few times he did venture upfield. And I'm not sure what you're watching, but it is precisely because he is trying hard NOT to waft it in (no Ade) that he thus gets labelled as a 'liability' for holding the ball too long! I'll take the first-half team performance from new cash all day long if we take our chances BTW.



I dont agree that Bale never helps him out. Bale is often covering back to double up with him.

Mate, Gareth isn't even always on the same side of the pitch due to walkies! I think compared to Lennon, Bale's coverage is inconsistent to say the least.


Similarly. why do you think it is necessary for him to babysit two international defenders? I would prefer if he just concentrated on his own duties.

After 70 minutes Gallas is cream-crackered and liable to get caught (not to mention his galavants upfield, no problem for me but it leaves a gap which needs covering) plus Verts is new and still gets caught out/will continue to until he settles in a few weeks time (top defender IMHO, he will!)...I genuinely cannot think of anyone who's mullered him this season. and I'd stretch to think about it last season too...


Where I do agree with you is that hopefully his distribution will improve when Defoe is replaced by Ade so that he has more of a target man to aim for. But overall, his performances so far this season have been really poor - you only have to look at the ratings people have given him to recognise that fact.

Mate, I don't look at other people's ratings or reviews. I tend to only trust what I see and think versus a few mates. Like most of us. So no, I don't take those ratings as recognizing a "fact" because it isn't one. Neither are my opinions.
The only fact is that he is obviously rated highly enough by our last four managers to be the starting LB for Tottenham Hotspur! Seriously, that is a stone cold fact. And if I have to choose to trust my eyes/read of the game (which appears to run parallel to managers past and present) versus internet chatter, then I'll trust myself and fall on the sword if one is necessary.

Best,
Steff

I said at the start - he is a good player - but imo he isnt a great player. We will just have to disagree on our view of him and his contribution to the team - this season in particular.

BTW, the ratings other people give him are a fact. It may be their opinion and they may or may not be true in your eyes, but the ratings they give are themselves a matter of record. BAE has scored consistently low this season (averaging in the worst 4 players in every game this season with scores of just 5.06, 5.23 and 5.75 - and that includes one in which he scored the only goal, albeit somewhat flukily!!. While it is not the only yardstick, to completely ignore other peoples assessments is the height of arrogance.

One of the reasons he has been and continues to be first choice could simply be because we dont have any other left backs at the club!! I hope he finds some form again soon but will worry if he keeps on performing as he has done so far this season.

 

[thfcsteff]

Continuing the debate mate...my answers in bold...






I said at the start - he is a good player - but imo he isnt a great player. We will just have to disagree on our view of him and his contribution to the team - this season in particular.

BTW, the ratings other people give him are a fact. It may be their opinion and they may or may not be true in your eyes, but the ratings they give are themselves a matter of record. BAE has scored consistently low this season (averaging in the worst 4 players in every game this season with scores of just 5.06, 5.23 and 5.75 - and that includes one in which he scored the only goal, albeit somewhat flukily!!. While it is not the only yardstick, to completely ignore other peoples assessments is the height of arrogance.

One of the reasons he has been and continues to be first choice could simply be because we dont have any other left backs at the club!! I hope he finds some form again soon but will worry if he keeps on performing as he has done so far this season.

We agree to disagree then mate...but on the arrogance thing...my point was that the views on an Internet forum do not equate with 'fact' mate, they're just a small percentage of opinions. The only fact is that different opinions exist. And given that we've been politely reading each others views and disagreeing suggests I don't ignore the opinions in a 'read them' sense, I just prefer to go with my own judgement right or wrong.

 

[Pirate55]

We agree to disagree then mate...but on the arrogance thing...my point was that the views on an Internet forum do not equate with 'fact' mate, they're just a small percentage of opinions. The only fact is that different opinions exist. And given that we've been politely reading each others views and disagreeing suggests I don't ignore the opinions in a 'read them' sense, I just prefer to go with my own judgement right or wrong.

Thats fine - football is all about different opinions and forum boards are one of the best places to discuss them. The one thing we all have in common (I hope) is a love of THFC and we all want the best for the club - but sometimes disagree on the best way to achieve it. Of course we all feel our own assessments and judgements are "right" but of course that is not a fact and is open to other opposing views. Check, Mate.

 

[Pandy]

In the interests of debate, I consider BAE to be one of the most over-rated players on this board. He is a good player, flamboyant and an interesting personality but imho does not deserve the deification you and others give him. He is often a liability, he tries crazy tricks in ridiculously dangerous positions, he gives away many cheap free kicks, last season played many opponents on side by not keeping the defensive line, is often beaten in the air and is prone to recklessness (eg from reports there was a clear pen which should have been awarded against him for shirt pulling against Norwich). I remember him being skinned on more than one occasion against WBA - the incident close to the corner flag and byline when he was left for dead and which should have resulted in a goal against us, immediately springs to mind.

To deal with your specific points, how do you know he has been instructed to stay back? In fact, most people on here seem to want him to play in a more advanced role and get forward more when we are attacking. How do you know AVB has told him not to? Even last season, when he did venture forward more, his crossing was often appalling. How many assists does he have to his name? Certainly not enough bearing in mind how often he got into great crossing positions last year. This season he hasnt even got into those positions and his wafting the ball in to nowhere was much in evidence against Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I dont agree that Bale never helps him out. Bale is often covering back to double up with him. Similarly. why do you think it is necessary for him to babysit two international defenders? I would prefer if he just concentrated on his own duties. Where I do agree with you is that hopefully his distribution will improve when Defoe is replaced by Ade so that he has more of a target man to aim for. But overall, his performances so far this season have been really poor - you only have to look at the ratings people have given him to recognise that fact.

That was never a penalty IMO - Benny had his shirt being pulled off his back and returned the favour. I don't think the ratings a footballer achieves on a supporters' forum is any sort of accurate gauge of how well a player has played either, didn't see the West Brom game but I really don't think he's been that bad.

 

[thfcsteff]

That was never a penalty IMO - Benny had his shirt being pulled off his back and returned the favour. I don't think the ratings a footballer achieves on a supporters' forum is any sort of accurate gauge of how well a player has played either, didn't see the West Brom game but I really don't think he's been that bad.

It was the same with the foul called on Livermore. he was being mauled first. Lino should've seen it, everyone else did.

 

[thfcsteff]

Thats fine - football is all about different opinions and forum boards are one of the best places to discuss them. The one thing we all have in common (I hope) is a love of THFC and we all want the best for the club - but sometimes disagree on the best way to achieve it. Of course we all feel our own assessments and judgements are "right" but of course that is not a fact and is open to other opposing views. Check, Mate.

=D>

Indeed mate, nice chatting, more of the same in the future I'm sure, COYS.

 

[Kingdawson]

=D>

Indeed mate, nice chatting, more of the same in the future I'm sure, COYS.

You've lost it.

 

[thfcsteff]

You've lost it.

I'm sorry? What are you talking about?