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**Official Other Games Thread, Season 2012/13**

i know people have a habit of quoting any old tat posted and saying 'good post' as long as it falls in line with their way of thinking

but once again Braineclipse - good post summarizing the two points being made from either side of the argument, i feel.
 
Jurgen the German said:
It's not good enough because we haven't done what was required. Not a hard concept to understand. Man United won the league with 80 points two seasons ago, the very next season, they finished with 89 points but finished 2nd. I bet their fans wouldn't have been happy with simply winning more points than the previous season.
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It beggars belief tbh. Somehow i really don't think United fans would have been saying "ah well we did better last season by gaining 9 points more" when cited were picking up their winners medals.
 
Spursalot said:
Not really clutching at straws.


We will have performed better this season than we did last. Us. Our performances. Our points total is higher. Perfectly reasonable to say we have bettered our previous season.


When looked at in context though you would have to say that Chelsea have improved far more than us. For some strange bizzare reason. Whilst Arsenal have stayed pretty much stationary.
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I can give you the reason - retaining Mata and Ramires and buying Hazard, Oscar, Azpi, Ba, a bunch of other AMs who have gone on loan while we lose our two most creative players in Modric and VdV and replace them with Dembele and Dempsey.

I saw a figure that showed the costs of our midfield against theirs at Stamford Bridge - something like 15m vs 125m. We have to accept reality here - 9 times out of 10, the team that spends 100m more than us is going to improve more than us, no?

Arse have also done fairly well in the transfer market. They've replaced a star goalscorer with a star creative AM (Cazorla) + a decent striker. There's plenty of quality there, just of a different kind.
 
Kingdawson said:
yeh.

Man united "bettered their previous season" when they finished 2nd with 89 points than when they won the league with 80 points. Yep that happened, they bettered their season.
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Yes, they did better their own season. They must have performed better to get 89 points than they performed to get 80 points?


Performing better gets you more points right? I'm not quite sure where you are confused.
 
skyfarer said:
I can give you the reason - retaining Mata and Ramires and buying Hazard, Oscar, Azpi, Ba, a bunch of other AMs who have gone on loan while we lose our two most creative players in Modric and VdV and replace them with Dembele and Dempsey.

I saw a figure that showed the costs of our midfield against theirs at Stamford Bridge - something like 15m vs 125m. We have to accept reality here - 9 times out of 10, the team that spends 100m more than us is going to improve more than us, no?

Arse have also done fairly well in the transfer market. They've replaced a star goalscorer with a star creative AM (Cazorla) + a decent striker. There's plenty of quality there, just of a different kind.
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I think it's almost unanimously agreed that scum improved better than we did. But I don't why people are ok with it. Surely Levy has to take SOME blame for that. AVB has had his hands tied to a certain extent.
 
Spursalot said:
Yes, they did better their own season. They must have performed better to get 89 points than they performed to get 80 points?


Performing better gets you more points right? I'm not quite sure where you are confused.
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What if they had finished 3rd or 4th? Do you think they would still say "it's fine, we bettered the previous points total."?
 
Jurgen the German said:
It's not good enough because we haven't done what was required. Not a hard concept to understand. Man United won the league with 80 points two seasons ago, the very next season, they finished with 89 points but finished 2nd. I bet their fans wouldn't have been happy with simply winning more points than the previous season.
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let's say for example that City, this season, finished second to United but ran them really really close - amassing more points than the season previous and forcing United to win the title with more points than any season previous.

do you think City, whilst being disappointing at not winning the title, would be thinking "you know what we really fudged it up this season we should have done XYZ" OR do you think they'd be holding their hands up and saying we give our best united were better ?



of course it's disappointing to miss out on 4th - but we have a Chelsea team playing much better than last season and an Arsenal team also - we bettered our turn out last season but were beaten by two better teams over the course of the season, we didn't lose it, they won it.
 
Spursalot said:
Yes, they did better their own season. They must have performed better to get 89 points than they performed to get 80 points?


Performing better gets you more points right? I'm not quite sure where you are confused.
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that makes no allowance for strength of schedule, not all matches are equal
 
What's to argue about? We potentially will get more points but miss out. From a club perspective, we improved regardless of our league position. The fact we miss out on CL is disappointing and unfortunate.
 
Jurgen the German said:
What if they had finished 3rd or 4th? Do you think they would still say "it's fine, we bettered the previous points total."?
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That's not the issue. 89 points is better than 80, as 70 or 72 is better than 69 (assuming we don't lose to Sunderland). You're not comparing league positions, but looking at how the team performed over the course of a season. What the other teams achieved is irrelevant in that context.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I think it's almost unanimously agreed that scum improved better than we did. But I don't why people are ok with it. Surely Levy has to take SOME blame for that. AVB has had his hands tied to a certain extent.
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yes let's blame someone for not being able to improve as much as a team that 1- has CL football on offer and 2- rakes in over a 100 mil more than us each season.

think you need to remember that although Arsenal are only 1 or 2 points away from us the last couple of seasons on the pitch - off it, sadly they are light years away from us
 
Jurgen the German said:
What if they had finished 3rd or 4th? Do you think they would still say "it's fine, we bettered the previous points total."?
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No, they would turn around and say 'f*ck me those other clubs have been f*cking fantastic this season. Hats off to them.'


What they wouldn't do is turn round and say 'We f*cked up.'


Because they clearly didn't.
 
Spursalot said:
Yes, they did better their own season. They must have performed better to get 89 points than they performed to get 80 points?


Performing better gets you more points right? I'm not quite sure where you are confused.
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Are you a member of any other football forum by any chance? if by some small chance you are please type what you're saying now on another forum and tell me how that goes.
 
billyiddo said:
of course not - but let's say for example that City, this season, finished second to United but ran them really really close - amassing more points than the season previous and forcing United to win the title with more points than any season previous.

do you think City, whilst being disappointing at not winning the title, would be thinking "you know what we really fudged it up this season we should have done XYZ" OR do you think they'd be holding their hands up and saying we give our best united were better ?



of course it's disappointing to miss out on 4th - but we have a Chelsea team playing much better than last season and an Arsenal team also - we bettered our turn out last season but were beaten by two better teams over the course of the season, we didn't lose it, they won it.
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I would think Emirates Marketing Project would have been disappointed to have not won it having clearly been the best side for well over half the season, with the resources they have and the squad they have, I would imagine their fans and people that own them would have been diasppointed.

You may say they won it, but I think it's a combination of them "winning it" and us giving it to them to some extent, although not as bad as last season.
 
Jurgen the German said:
It's not good enough because we haven't done what was required. Not a hard concept to understand. Man United won the league with 80 points two seasons ago, the very next season, they finished with 89 points but finished 2nd. I bet their fans wouldn't have been happy with simply winning more points than the previous season.
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Kingdawson said:
It beggars belief tbh. Somehow i really don't think United fans would have been saying "ah well we did better last season by gaining 9 points more" when cited were picking up their winners medals.
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Does it always have to be black or white though?

I actually remember hearing from United fans that season that despite being disappointed with losing out on the title they were happy with the performance from the team and the manager because most season that would have been enough to win the league. They were just bested by a very good side who did even better. It is possible to be disappointed with the outcome, yet satisfied with the effort and performance.
 
Disappointed about Arsenal winning and overtaking us. But have to be happy about Wigan getting relegated. Since beating them 9-1 in 2010, we have always found it difficult to play against Wigan, losing 2 of our 3 home matches since then. And we have lost 5 points to Wigan this season, one of the main reason why we are not in top 4 now. Annoyingly, Arsenal and Chelsea have taken maximum 6 points each against them. Atleast we don't have to face Wigan next season.
 
billyiddo said:
yes let's blame someone for not being able to improve as much as a team that 1- has CL football on offer and 2- rakes in over a 100 mil more than us each season.

think you need to remember that although Arsenal are only 1 or 2 points away from us the last couple of seasons on the pitch - off it, sadly they are light years away from us
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The real problem isn't AVB or Levy, it's the reality of not having a massive stadium or a shady oil billionaire benefactor. There's not much anyone can do about that, unfortunately - unless Joe Lewis suddenly decides to convert from being a money fan to a Spurs fan.
 
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