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Moussa Sissoko

thfcsteff said:
I think a lot of this comes from the fact you are genuinely alarmed that Sissoko can a) listen to the manager and b) execute instruction, when I feel he has done it plenty of times but has simply lacked the confidence to shine/be effective. He has certainly learnt a hell of a lot under Poch, and I personally believe his workmate alone has doubled in the last 8 months.

I get it.

I was personally surprised and delighted at how well Aurier did, and how much better he has been the last few games he has played. My mate would always tell me he thought there was a player there whereas I thought only of his liabilities. It happens to the worst of us ;-)
But oh how glorious when they show us all!!!
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"Genuinely alarmed"? Really? Come on Steff, dont tell me you've drunk the kool aid too.

My point on instruction wasnt "Oh golly! Did you see that! He did a thing!", it was to illustrate the difference in performance to Wolves and Palace, to point to the original statement that he was playing a more defensive role. That was it.

He intercepted the ball central in front of our box, shaped to stride forward (and had space to do so), and then stopped the run and passed the ball simply. This, to me, says he was performing a defensively minded role, he was instructed to sit more.

Against Palace and Wolves he would have gone charging through the middle, the exact thing people were so excited about the last couple of weeks.

That is all, to illustrate a difference in how he was played, not to try and make a big deal about his capacity to be instructed.

As to Poch? Frankly I think he has worked absolute miracles with Sissoko. Its taken YEARS of work! BUT he has transformed him from what he was. Quite possibly his greatest achievement in coaching.

Aurier? I was one of those that always said he had something about him, but never once would I call a bad performance good, and I have said as much as he may/may not "make it". In fairness, I think only recent games does he seem to have tightened up his game, and its probably been the best he has played. Prior to that? As much as I saw potential in him I wouldnt have been shocked if we were thinking of selling.
 
Ade's folks are ok really said:
I groaned every time Sissoko was on the team sheet.
I shook my head in disappointment whenever he mis-controlled a pass.
I expected nothing of him when he lined up a shot.
I rinsed him to friends of rival teams and bemoaned the amount we spent on him.
And I laughed at him when he would somehow inexplicably run the ball out of play when it was easier to keep it in.

...But I am being proved wrong. And am happy to say it.
Long may his rise in confidence and performances continue as the lad is doing a great job of late and is definitely changing my opinion of him.

Love the fact he's now having his name sung too. Must be a real boost.

Keep it up Moussa, there's a huge part for you to play in this season's journey.


P.S...He still looks like bambi on ice when he runs with the ball.
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People liked to argue that he was being singled out and bullied, and that other players make mistakes but dont get derided.

The response then was that these were players making a positive impact, and those mistakes were the exception to over all good performances.

He ran the ball out against Chelsea, quite badly, and yet there wasnt a groan, a moan, or anything. Because he was otherwise doing well and contributing.

Funny that.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
People liked to argue that he was being singled out and bullied, and that other players make mistakes but dont get derided.

The response then was that these were players making a positive impact, and those mistakes were the exception to over all good performances.

He ran the ball out against Chelsea, quite badly, and yet there wasnt a groan, a moan, or anything. Because he was otherwise doing well and contributing.

Funny that.
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But that's football on the whole isn't it?? Or at least for us fans who don't know the character and mentality of a player or his efforts in training.

To us, you're only really as good as your last few games, right?

Players like Kane have earned the right to have several games poor games before we start to criticise him. Alli and Verts also. Eriksen is in that category, though he does infuriate me at times when he's not on it. Plays like a right pussy at times. But i want to see him in the team as he has the ability to do something and has shown he has the talent on numerous occasions.

Sissoko is on the up. I hope it continues so that when that inevitable stumble in form rears it's head again we don't all jump back on the bandwagon of thinking how crap he is.
 
As an aside, I downloaded the torrent of the latest Chelsea drubbing to add to my Chelsea defeats gloat vault, it is well worth another look.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Amusing that you talk about how I frame my argument, then write a full thesis miss representing it.

And, fundamentally, I disagree with your "never the reality" angle. That is the primary disagreement we have. Because he was absolutely terrible. For a long time your defence of him was utterly baseless. Particularly characterised by the whole "I argued for a lot of last season that Sissoko was excellent defensively (because he wasn't adding much on offence and I didn't believe he'd be in the side if he was adding absolutely nothing, or being actually detrimental in an elite sport with such fine margins)". Read it. You didnt have a tangible view yourself, you didnt have anything to say other than "If he is playing he must offer something". Palming it off to the management, the last refuge of an argument with no weight.

He was TERRIBLE. Fundamentally TERRIBLE. Couldnt trap a bag of cement, first touch a 20yd pass, cant find a team mate, play the ball off the pitch, tackle himself TERRIBLE. That he has improved now, doesnt mean he wasnt that bad then. He was.

People enjoy painting me as having backed myself into a corner and just blindly playing it through. I havent. At any stage Ive given credit where due, re evaluated what I think he is capable of and given fair comment. You? When he was indefensible you decided to defend him. I believe you said at the time soley because you didnt like how he was criticised. And youve done nothing but layer it on top of that ever since. An inch of progress taken as a mile.

Whenever I have offered due credit, Ive been told its not enough, Im being unfair still, my prejudice is informing it. When Im being fair, and its your prejudice that is unchecked - but Im the unreasonable one?

I said ages ago he was useful defensively. Not great, but that was his strengths. And if we were to use him in that capacity it would be the best use of him. Where is the issue in any of that?

He is still technically inferior, IMHO, to pretty well everyone else in the squad. Im not being bitchy, I genuinely cannot think of a player with worse technical skills.

Tactically I maintain when he is given license to roam he causes issues, I dont think his movement and sense of when to be where is good at all, and I think he causes gaps all over the place.

Physically he is a specimine, that rare combination of pace, agility, stamina and power. I think this saves him a lot of the time.

Positionally - what makes sense with a player like that? Give them a smaller area to play in and straight forward instruction. Saturday was the nearest he played that way and as I said - I think it was the best Ive seen of him in our shirt. He held position wonderfully, was in the right place at the right time, and used his assets to their best effect. If we played him like that every week Id be absolutely delighted.

Where is the caveat, the qualifier, in explaining why I think what I think?

If he plays against Milan and is an absolute box to box beast, running the midfield and really contributing to the attack - you think I wont appreciate it?

Id be mighty surprised, thats for sure, but also ecstatic. And therin lies the rub. I have done no more than evaluate as I go, if anyone has an entrenched position it is you.
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Yes, that’s clearly where the disagreement is, because my opinion has always been ‘terrible first few games and then couldn’t get back into the side, decent squad player last season, and much better this season’. I don’t know what kind of entrenched position that is...I’ve also evaluated as I’ve gone.

If you want to ascribe the idea that he was absolutely TERRIBLE last season, that is where I think you are being harsh. I went back to through this thread for a bit of a laugh and it’s so interesting. You can see the reactions shift towards him after the Juve pre-season game last season. First it’s a ‘holy brick he was actually decent’ and then game after game, there’s loads of people in this thread saying he was decent again. Sure, you get a couple saying he was still absolutely TERRIBLE, but actually a fair few people, not just me, saying bore off with the unjustified criticism, because he was actually ok. And this was exactly what I was talking about at the time, spoken about like he wasn’t a footballer, and wasn’t good enough to us, when he was never the worst player for us on the pitch and actually doing ok. Note I’m not saying great, just ok.

Btw, to say my argument is baseless because of the quote above...that in itself wasn’t my entire argument, it was simply the reason I decided to look at his performances and see what else he was contributing, and I’ve detailed those points many times.

I still maintain that the idea of a holding player now being this easy role that even a tactical dunce could work is a pretty big leap from how you’ve characterised him before, which is terrible defensively. If he has the ability, and the tactical awareness to play the role you now want him to, could it not be that he had the tactical awareness to be adding some value in our team last season?
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Amusing that you talk about how I frame my argument, then write a full thesis miss representing it.

And, fundamentally, I disagree with your "never the reality" angle. That is the primary disagreement we have. Because he was absolutely terrible. For a long time your defence of him was utterly baseless. Particularly characterised by the whole "I argued for a lot of last season that Sissoko was excellent defensively (because he wasn't adding much on offence and I didn't believe he'd be in the side if he was adding absolutely nothing, or being actually detrimental in an elite sport with such fine margins)". Read it. You didnt have a tangible view yourself, you didnt have anything to say other than "If he is playing he must offer something". Palming it off to the management, the last refuge of an argument with no weight.

He was TERRIBLE. Fundamentally TERRIBLE. Couldnt trap a bag of cement, first touch a 20yd pass, cant find a team mate, play the ball off the pitch, tackle himself TERRIBLE. That he has improved now, doesnt mean he wasnt that bad then. He was.

People enjoy painting me as having backed myself into a corner and just blindly playing it through. I havent. At any stage Ive given credit where due, re evaluated what I think he is capable of and given fair comment. You? When he was indefensible you decided to defend him. I believe you said at the time soley because you didnt like how he was criticised. And youve done nothing but layer it on top of that ever since. An inch of progress taken as a mile.

Whenever I have offered due credit, Ive been told its not enough, Im being unfair still, my prejudice is informing it. When Im being fair, and its your prejudice that is unchecked - but Im the unreasonable one?

I said ages ago he was useful defensively. Not great, but that was his strengths. And if we were to use him in that capacity it would be the best use of him. Where is the issue in any of that?

He is still technically inferior, IMHO, to pretty well everyone else in the squad. Im not being bitchy, I genuinely cannot think of a player with worse technical skills.

Tactically I maintain when he is given license to roam he causes issues, I dont think his movement and sense of when to be where is good at all, and I think he causes gaps all over the place.

Physically he is a specimine, that rare combination of pace, agility, stamina and power. I think this saves him a lot of the time.

Positionally - what makes sense with a player like that? Give them a smaller area to play in and straight forward instruction. Saturday was the nearest he played that way and as I said - I think it was the best Ive seen of him in our shirt. He held position wonderfully, was in the right place at the right time, and used his assets to their best effect. If we played him like that every week Id be absolutely delighted.

Where is the caveat, the qualifier, in explaining why I think what I think?

If he plays against Milan and is an absolute box to box beast, running the midfield and really contributing to the attack - you think I wont appreciate it?

Id be mighty surprised, thats for sure, but also ecstatic. And therin lies the rub. I have done no more than evaluate as I go, if anyone has an entrenched position it is you.
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I actually don’t have much of a problem with how you’ve characterised him here, if I was to argue anything it would be a much of a muchness. I just fundamentally disagree that he was TERRIBLE last season. Particularly the way you described him, because that wasn’t the Sissoko of last season.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Yes, that’s clearly where the disagreement is, because my opinion has always been ‘terrible first few games and then couldn’t get back into the side, decent squad player last season, and much better this season’. I don’t know what kind of entrenched position that is...I’ve also evaluated as I’ve gone.

If you want to ascribe the idea that he was absolutely TERRIBLE last season, that is where I think you are being harsh. I went back to through this thread for a bit of a laugh and it’s so interesting. You can see the reactions shift towards him after the Juve pre-season game last season. First it’s a ‘holy brick he was actually decent’ and then game after game, there’s loads of people in this thread saying he was decent again. Sure, you get a couple saying he was still absolutely TERRIBLE, but actually a fair few people, not just me, saying bore off with the unjustified criticism, because he was actually ok. And this was exactly what I was talking about at the time, spoken about like he wasn’t a footballer, and wasn’t good enough to us, when he was never the worst player for us on the pitch and actually doing ok. Note I’m not saying great, just ok.

Btw, to say my argument is baseless because of the quote above...that in itself wasn’t my entire argument, it was simply the reason I decided to look at his performances and see what else he was contributing, and I’ve detailed those points many times.

I still maintain that the idea of a holding player now being this easy role that even a tactical dunce could work is a pretty big leap from how you’ve characterised him before, which is terrible defensively. If he has the ability, and the tactical awareness to play the role you now want him to, could it not be that he had the tactical awareness to be adding some value in our team last season?
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At which point in that post did I specify he was absolutely terrible specifically last season? Clue - I didnt.

I dont think he was any good last season, thats for sure. A little promise late on but I wouldnt say he offered any performances of particular note. He was, however, improved on the season before.

But you go ahead, misrepresent some more, its about all youve left to dig at - because fundamentally you see my comments are nothing like as OTT as youd like to paint them.

And, the final thing youre clinging to, comments about DM. Comments you contextualised yourself at length and THEN argued against. Shall I clear it up? Or will it just offer you something else to hang a twisted argument on?

fudge it, why not.

He has been very poor defensively, lets get that straight. Because he has been fundamentally terrible before, in all aspects. Over time he has improved. At times, to my mind, from TERRIBLE to POOR to MEH to ... Where others see some sort of match winner.

As he improved he showed a capacity for defensive work. Which I acknowledged. Because my biased view is so entrenched and that.

I dont recall ever saying a holding role was easy. Thats on you. I didnt say he was a tactical dunce in defensive areas, another one thats on you.

What I did say, was I thought to get the best from him - to best utilise his strengths - was to play him in a defensive role. Hunt the ball down, protect the back line, give it simply. At no point have I said it was easy. Though it is much simpler than playing CM/B2B/whatever.

You operate in a much smaller area of the pitch, with the whole game ahead of you, and a limited number of responsibilities.

And sniffing out trouble, closing it down, and playing it off is well within his ability (as you have repeatedly stated), as Chelsea showed. His weaknesses in position arent exposed, because so long as he stays deeper he'll be fine (even out of position he has the ability to recover if he is already deeper). His ability to win the ball, muscle people off the ball, chase people down is fully utilised. And his lack of ability on the ball is not exposed.

Where in this you take it I think he is an idiot, and a DM position is an idiots job I dont know, but as I said, it seems a deliberate ploy to misrepresent me.
 
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